What is their problem!?

bosquef

Lesson 1:

Before I went to South America several years ago, I was lectured on how conservative Peruvian culture was. Then I got to the small town in a remote corner of the Amazon where I was going to be spending a few months, and saw women wearing clothes so skimpy (and creative!) that European and North American fashion designers haven't dreamed of them yet.

Lesson 2:

I expected (as a man) to have to wear long pants everyday in Kerala, and didn't bring any shorts. Then I got to Kerala, and discovered that a high percentage of men were wearing tucked up lungis all day every day - basically they look like mini-skirts.

Lesson 3:

Women today in Kerala mostly wear Saris and Salwar Kameez. Men wear Lungis or pants and short sleeved button down shirts. But according to Amitav Ghosh's In An Antique Land, arab travellers who visited the region 1000 years ago described everyone (male and female) wearing only a thin cloth covering up their upper legs - and both men and women walking around without covering their upper bodies.

Lesson 4:

A few months back, I spent a month travelling around India with a woman friend of mine who was both a veteran India traveller, and who was rather obsessed with dressing so as to not offend anyone. She had a couple Salwar Kameezes, and she mostly wore those - ocassionally pants and a long sleeved shirt. She lectured me on how important it was to use her shawls to cover up any sign of her breasts. Then we got to Rajastan, and saw hundreds of rural women wearing a top that wasn't much more than a bra, and using their shawls to cover up their heads and faces.

Lesson 5:

One day, the same woman and I were desperately trying to buy last minute train tickets from Secunderbad Station north to Agra. There we were, rather exhausted, trying to get tourist quota tickets in the cavernous reservation office in Secunderbad, and after talking to several agents and queing up several times, an agent was actually printing our tickets out. Suddenly, I saw my friend's hand start trembling, and her face lose its color. She grabbed the tickets out of the agent's hand and ran across the room. What was the problem? Turns out the man waiting in line behind her on the other side from me had been rubbing his genitals against her rear. I asked her why she hadn't turned around and given him a good slap - and she responded that she wanted the tickets more than she wanted to slap him.

Moral(s)-
Even in India, there is no Law to follow with dress. And even women who dress conservatively can get harassed, so dress is not a real protection - nor is lack of it an excuse for harassment. I'm afraid my story may not be of much comfort. Indian women are also subjected to harassment, as I found out when I met this woman: http://buddhas-smile-school.org/2006/12/sangitas-story/

But - I certainly find it true that by and large, the Indians I have interacted with appreciate my (and my friends) attempts to fit in with the local culture. And no, an American of European descent living in a place where no other westerners are commonly seen never stops getting stared at, no matter what I chose to wear.

the opoponax

great post, bosquef.

i've heard from several sources (none of which are to hand, unfortunately), that the sari top wasn't heard of until the british showed up, and before that it was just the loose end of the sari between a woman's breasts and the open air.

i also remember when i saw Pather Panchali for the first time, noticing that neither the grandmother or the little sister of the family wore them -- only the mother (i.e. only the woman of childbearing age). i also could've sworn that the elderly widows in Deepa Mehta's recent Water didn't wear them, either...

Nick-H

Would you mind coming here at once and cleaning up the tea I have just coughed all over my keyboard!!!!!

There are ways of tying the sari so that it shows off the figure, and ways of tying it so that it hides it: this new idea I haven't seen yet!

Seriously... I've seen the very poor and very old wearing a sari without a blouse, it is not that uncommon. I've seen pictures of tribal women wearing a skirt only.

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Silmaril

akt - I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, but I think we mean the same thing. Presumably, if someone was carrying their money carelessly and it was stolen you would still condemn the thief, but yes, we all accept that we have to be practicle.

Opoponax - that is, of course, the other side of the coin . My personal feeling is that women should be free to dress as they feel comfortable, without being condemned as either frigid or sluttish! The trouble is, what women feel comfortable in is also partly (arguably wholly) a taught response . . .

Casey - thanks

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I wonder as I wander and the wondering gets stronger . . .

dzibead

Good point.

Really, there are perfectly reasonable alternatives to the "hot babe" look available, and "expected" by whom? If you really don't want to show a lot of skin, don't -- and you don't have to shop at the "fat girls" stores to find alternatives to the "hot babe" look, either.

Maybe not fair if the assumption is that they really are evil and slutty rather than either just clueless or possibly self-absorbed. But since there actually are plenty of reasonable alternatives to the slut look, I'm not really willing to give people who dress revealingly or provocatively - and then complain about the attention they get - a complete pass. The consumer options available to American women clearly aren't so limited that they really have no choice but to dress in skimpy clothing! If you really think, as you said above, that "one good measure of the persisting american inequality is the fact that women are EXPECTED now to dress in a revealing and sexualized way," then REBEL!

akt

I think we agree on the basics but emphasis may be different. One has little control over other people's personalities, let alone cultural habits, but one can control one's own behavior to minimize unpleasantness.

Condemning someone, without knowing details, is a complex issue. A hungry person stealing for food is in a different class than many other thieves. Similarly, while we must always condemn actual aggression, it also borders on moronic to "condemn" a sexually oppressed teenager for staring at a semi-nude female body. In an ideal world that boy would have a rich social life, be worrying about a carrer, be dating and kissing girls his own age, and not trying to scam or lust after unavailable Western tourists. World is not always ideal and it is our responsibility to deal with whatever state we find it in.

Besides, and I say the same to Indians visiting the USA, why travel if you don't want to adapt to other people and places even temporarily? You'd obviously be much more comfortable in your own home environment.

the opoponax

keep in mind i'm not talking about trashy whore stripper style fashion, i'm talking about what's available in the everyday shops and how normal women are expected to dress. especially in comparison to what would be considered acceptable streetwear on an indian vacation. i remember in high school (in the southern US, where it's warm almost year round) barely owning any tops with sleeves and no skirts that went even to my knees. and i was by no means the town tramp. had i traveled to india then, i'd have been stared at nonstop, and i probably never would have known why because to me that would have been perfectly respectable attire.

as to "expected by whom", well everyone, mainly. i'm lucky to work in a very casual field, but i see what passes for business wear in other offices, and let me tell you according to what people describe here at IM, it would NEVER fly in india.

Silmaril

akt - I'm not sure our different emphasise (sp?) are that different really. I am realistic enough to accept that stares will be inevitable! When I say I would condemn men rather than women, I mean I would condemn men who use "immodest" dress as an excuse to rape/seriously assault. Men will stare at beautiful women . . . and women will stare at beautiful men!!! That's more or less inevitable!

If the "why travel" comment is aimed at me: I believe my original post indicated that I was willing to adapt temporarily in order to explore different cultures? Certainly my intention was to show the very fine balance I have tried to maintain (in my own head as much as anything!) between my feelings about equality and rights and my wish to be a courteous and open-minded traveller. (I apologise if I am being unecessarily defensive here-but I imagine the point might stand for travellers in general)

dzibead

There's plenty of clothing available in everyday shops in the U.S., in styles that "normal women" wear routinely, that would be perfectly acceptable in India.

I inferred from one of your earlier posts here that you haven't actually been to India yet (correct?), so I think you possibly have an exaggerated notion of what will or will not be "acceptable streetwear" there. If you look at the OP's original message in this thread, she was talking about fashions that are pretty slutty looking, not a pair of slacks and a t-shirt from Lands End or J.Jill (just to give a couple examples of purveyors of casual clothing that "normal" women" in the U.S. wear that would be entirely OK in India).

If it's all that "casual," it might not fly even in many work (and other) environments in the U.S., either. But without knowing exactly what the style of dress you're referring to is like (halter tops? short shorts??), it's difficult to know whether or not it would actually fly in India - and another factor to consider is "where in India?" Context is everything. What works in Mumbai, even "downtown," or at a beach resort, may not work so well in Varanasi or some conservative neighborhood or village village. But it just isn't the case that it would be a Herculean task, or even an inconvenience, to find clothing in the U.S. that will be perfectly acceptable pretty much anywhere in India, and you certainly don't have to "go native" in order to be "appropriately" dressed.

akt

Silmaril: We are on the same wavelength. My "why travel" remark was not aimed at you in anyway. I was just musing about something I point out to many travelers, mostly family and friends from India who visit the US, but also a few Western friends traveling east. There is a lot of good in most places and it is educating as well as fun to adapt to it.

In our routine, daily, local lives, we instinctively understand the need to adapt to where we have chosen to visit. You go to a disco bar when you want a disco bar, a church when you want a church, sports arena or shopping mall or museum when you want those. Few of us expect people in one place to behave like another one just for our convenience. International travel is no different. People who must have Swedish norms should visit Sweden, not India. Indians who can't stand American ways should visit some place more to their liking, instead of getting upset that Americans are acting like Americans. :-) Etc.

the opoponax

dzi, i think we're misunderstanding each other.

in my original post in the thread, i said that the reason a lot of women wear what they wear in india, and get stared at, etc. is probably because those are just the clothes they happen to have, and didn't feel like shopping for a whole new wardrobe before traveling (also may not have done their research or bothered to pack carefully). certainly if the items i've seen recommended here and in guidebooks are a good measure of what's actually acceptable, that could easily be the case. it's certainly the case for me, and i dress quite modestly by American standards.

later in the thread i suggested (not necessarily in context with indian travel) that the ability to wear sleeveless tops and short skirts isn't necessarily any great feminist advance, looking at the situation in the west as i know it. women's clothes in my experience (as a 26 year old woman living in a major american city) are almost ALWAYS more sexualizing than their counterparts in menswear.

i'm not at all suggesting that it is acceptable to wear exceptionally skimpy clothes in india (or that indian mores are such that you need to wear a burqa).

cyberhippie

Evil, slutty, poor, hippy they're all adjectives that reflect the mindset of the individuals who use them. Said individuals then use the the stick of Indian culture and words like RESPECT to beat others with.
I don't think it's in good taste to wander around India in a mini skirts and tank top but I also don't think a bit of cleavage, calve or arm are about to send Indian society into paroxysms of indignant cultural rage! In fact I'm willing to bet of every hundred Indians you might encounter in a day, 95 will harbour NO opinion on this perceived immodesty.

Comments on girls dressed 'poor' are better treated with the disdain they deserve. For some nothing except the way they think and dress is ever going to be good enough (so much the better if they THINK they're receiving cultural brownie points)
On this, Indian sentiments are constantly blown out proportion. The idea that some hippy/new age traveler dressed like a clothes rack is somehow insulting to Indians or they're culture is ridiculous. You may warrant some minor amusement from some quarters but again most simply won't care.

The opoponax.

Like your take on what is expected of western women, totally agree, for all the freedoms offered, some women are still ensnared in the fantasies of a male dominated society,
Though off topic I've always been of the opinion that this portrayal of women as sex toys in the west causes far more confusion in the male Indian mind, than travelers showing a bit skin. Imagine being brought up in a largely gender partitioned world (yes I know that's not the WHOLE story) then being exposed to something like temptation island it would kinda confuse you!!
The idea of women as mere sex objects is so prevalent in our societies I'm sure in my own mind that it DOES send the wrong signals. No excuse for anything untoward but I'm sure this is a factor!!

PeakXV

Ladies - so what if you get caught a little under-dressed when traveling India - just blame it on Krishna :

http://www.asianart.com/exhibitions/...shnagrils.html

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We shall not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started ...and know the place for the first time.
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Don't go to India ~ Pre-trip Warnings & Misconceptions?

akt

I think this is true, most Indians won't care and certainly not think, "My culture is being insulted"! Even in Pakistan, a few inches of cleavage might not rise to the same rank as criticizing Koran or the Prophet. :-)

However, the problem is a practical one. A white female, however she may be dressed, would already stand out like a light bulb in most Indian situations. It is also not exactly rocket science that clothing that enhances the view of cleavage, nipples, or panties---I have even seen a few who had left the panties home---is not going to help her blend in the environment. Obviously, we need not worry about those thousands of men who'd pay no unpleasant attention, but a very few might. For those women who can take such attention in stride, there is no problem. Others might in the end be happier if they try to minimize the probability of such attention.

the opoponax

@ dzi --

i think CyberHippie has really said the last word here, but over dinner dishes i had another thought about something you said. you mentioned that since modest clothes are available at shops like Land's End and J.Jill, clearly there should be no reason for any american woman to offend any sensibilities on a visit to India.

Land's End and J.Jill are, in my estimation, clothing brands that mostly cater to more middle aged women (and are VERY conservative even in those terms). and most of the women referred to in this thread are implied to be young, not middle aged. i don't own any clothes like that, and i would feel out of place dressed that way in almost any US social situation i can imagine myself in. i would have to specifically seek out such clothes before a trip. and, again, i'm definitely more "modest" than most of my peers.

thus, underscoring the idea that these women are dressing the same way they would at home, and have no idea that they're offending anybody or inspiring unnatural levels of lust (american men seem to have no problem with american women walking around in shorts and sleeveless tops).