Partition talk

volga_volga

well, from what I heard and read about Partition going to Pakistan is not such a funny joke for an Indian or a Pakistani

for A LOT of peope it is was a national tragedy

or may be bitter sweet memories of Kashmir prevent me from enjoying this "joke"

yours,

Volga

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Rob_The_Pom

Could you explain that further please Avid my friend?
All the sources I've read estimates of the death toll during partition were between 0.5 and 2 million. (These are rough estimates from academia - the true horror will probably never be clear).
The death toll in WW2 was at least 52 million. (and I think that is on the conservative side).
Do you mean the Indian WW2 death toll, which was about 24,000?

And I am certainly not trivalising any loses for anyone during any of these appalling events.
As an interesting aside, Poland lost 6 million civilians and 123 thousand miliary personnel during WW2 - some 17.2% of it's total population.

Cheers

RTP

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volga_volga

yeah, 52 million WWII sounds about there, which should include 20 million Russians...

I heard 10 million died during the partition... would be interested to hear your numbers

AvidTrekker

Even today the Indian Govt quotes one-eighth to one-fourth the figures. I know this for a fact. I was physically present outside the Bombay Stock Exchange towers Bomb blast in 1992. I saw at least sixty people fall down from the higher floors. Many more died in the building itself. The official figures for this blast site are 23 or maybe 25 dead and 140 injured. I knew at least 20 dead people. (just one me in a city of 100 million)

All calamities are underplayed severely cuz of political reasons. It gives me a heartburn just thinking about it.

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AvidTrekker

Even if I could be severely wrong, (subsequently discovered that I was drastically wrong) the actual figure would be nearer to 40 million..... (subsequently discovered the max. figure of 2 million) which could be somewhat short (subseq. discovered that nowhere near) of the 52 million quoted above.

My point is...... THE KILLING SHOULD STOP. WHEREVER. The numbers cease to convey much after a certain figure.

Rob_The_Pom

I second that whole-heartedly.

RTP

bijapuri

actually, I think WWII has been over for some time now, ya? Partition, too, if I recall correctly, so that killing HAS stopped.

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bijapuri

40 million would have left everyone in both parts of punjab dead . . . I feel you do a disservice to the fallen to throw numbers around that are wildly inaccurate at best and certainly wothout a shred of scolarship behind them. why do you do that?

volga_volga

actually, that is an interesting parallel...

WWII: if you ask a Russian now what they think of Germans (bitter enemies before, I was brought up on the WWII films and nothing else on TV) they would not even mention the war. I believe Russians would not make such a distinction btw a German and another European/WWII ally.

Partition: look how many Muslim/Hindu marriages take place now in India? I think virtually zero. So many families lost something or someone during Partition that the family elders would never allow their offsprings into another faith... I sense that the memories of Partition are very fresh and alive. And so painful.

ashish0608

Volga_Volga

Quote:

"......look how many Muslim/Hindu marriages take place now in India? I think virtually zero..."


I would 2nd this..the Hindu/Muslim marriages have reduced a lot since the partition


...and u found a good similarity between WW2 and partition

Ashish

Bryan

On the partition issue
Many people blame the British for the slaughter that ensued
Granted it was rushed and ill thought out
Now I'm not saying i beleive this but just think its worth asking the question...What could the British have done to prevent the escalation of violence when the Muslim League campaigned so strongly for a seperate state and extremists on both sides highlighted differences between the two sides rather than the similariities

If it was the fault of the British why was there next to no violence, in comparison, in Bengal and what was soon to be East Pakistan (Bangladesh). Was it perhaps a cultural problem that existed in Punjab and its proximity to the lawless ungovenable lands further west?

Was Jinnah as responsible for the disaster as the British, where the Punjabis as guilty for being more ready to use violence than peaceful means?
Lets here your opinions...

Bryan

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Rob_The_Pom

I think that Avid was talking about communal violence in general, when he said the killing must stop - that's why I agreed with him...

Anyway, Patrick French's book Liberty or Death is an excellent account of Partition.
I've read various different accounts of Partition and most seem to offer a different 'blame' figure for the disaster. The biggest villian is generally Jinnah though - I wonder if Jinnah gets an unfair deal because most of the popular re-telling has come from British and Indian sources, rather than Pakistani sources.
Most people's knowledge of Partition comes from 'Ghandi' - a rather hagiographic piece of hokum, that doesn't bear to much resemblance to reality. Ghandi was a far shrewder and more ruthless politician than the film portrayed.
I find it difficult to see what choices the British had other than partition, if the country had been kept whole, the communal violence could have erupted into civil war, causing far worse blood shed.
I think the majority of blame for the horror of Partition must lie with those who killed others. Nobody asked groups of Hindu's, Sikhs and Muslims to start sticking knives in other, raping women and children, burning train carriages and countless other crimes.
Anyway, I'm sure there is lots more to say on this one and I have to go to work now.

RTP

edwardseco

AvidTrekker, your numbers are goofy. Its nowhere near that. Its a subject I studied once in the source documents and fervently wished I hadn't. Bij is right, a closer wild estimate is 10 million. Still, given the murder and rapine going into the millions it is something of lasting importance. The scars lie quietly in my family in India that experienced this and the subsequent ethnic cleansing in Kashmir. People scorn the right wingers in India and fail to see the historical background for their resentments (and I am sure equally on the other side)..

AvidTrekker

I plead guilty to all charges.

Will delete or retract my wild exaggerations above. Any disservice caused to the fallen should be atoned for. I don't know how to atone on the internet.

I reacted rather emotionally and wrote under emotional distress; as a result of which I wrote on a subject which is not mine, and I made wild exaggerations. Henceforward, I will not write when emotionally distressed..... in which case, the other two mistakes should not ordinarily happen.

I have a newspaper cutting dated 1997 which mentions "the number of people killed in the post-partition riots exceed the figure killed in WW II" ....... it seems the editor could have edited out the portion "in the entire British Commonwealth". I did a Google search and found the most conservative death-roll figure (for the post-partition riots) of 500,000 and the most generous figure at 2,000,000.

I am not trying to excuse myself. I know that newspaper editors do edit drastically and change the entire meaning. I should have thought of this before going by newspaper reports. For general information, I reproduce one of the original statements from a paper by Gyanendra Pandey of John Hopkins University..... which may have given birth to the twisted meaning in the newspaper report.

From a paper by Gyanendra Pandey, John Hopkins University

I offer no excuses. If it may please anyone, I will refrain from writing on IM for three days..... which equal the number of days my post appeared on the thread.

steven_ber

Wow, I hope not, If we all had to follow these rules following a simple mistake, I would be banned from posting for the next couple of years.

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