The Pick-Up Paradise (Article on Mcleod)

#31 Jul 27th, 2004, 00:01
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#31
I have refrained from posting on this and Lone Female Travelling Alone topics but now i am compelled to. By the way, I am an Indian male.

Okay lets face it. India is a tough country for backpackers or budget travellers to travel in. It is much more difficult for women, especially single women. Undeniably, there is a lot of harassment and "eve teasing" by Indian men. A large percentage of the women travellers have to cope with incidents such as groping, brushing aganist, peeping holes in their rooms, etc etc quite often during their stay here. (It would be interesting to conduct a poll and get some actual figures from our members here!!)

It is true that large parts of the Indian society is male dominated but by and large we treat women with respect and consideration. No less then they are treated in other more developed and emancipated cultures. Our culture and tradition and values do not allow for this sort of thing and it is distressing to hear about womens travellers bad experiences in our country. I (and I believe most other Indians) find this sort of thing shameful to say the least.

In spite of this, as we ourselves readily admit, these "things" do happen - more often than in other countries. However, if the reasons for these happenings are atttributed to ours being a sex starved society, or segregation, or other similiar genralizations about indian men and the indian society and beliefs made by people who are not really qualified to do so, then this too is upsetting.

So to answer your question mpop, I for one am not upset for your bring up the issue of sexual harassment but am quite put off by your generalisations which you are prone to make quite frequently. To equate what mike says about Dharamsala with harassment of females is not right in my opinion. Immoral - yes, but harassment ?

I would like to see some statistics on rape and murder of females in India as compared to other countries. Perhaps you could to post them here so that everbody can see.
#32 Jul 27th, 2004, 03:37
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#32
so, mpop's only answer to any critique so far has been " stay out of it" - to cyber, to me, to anyone else who dared to oppose (cyber is not a woman and i am not a rugged backpacker ). very constructive!!

have a good break anyone!
#33 Jul 27th, 2004, 03:53
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#33
mpop you're not often right but you're never wrong just about sums up the way you interact with people.
Yes I have talked to young girls about this very issue. Over the years there have been friend's daughters, cousins, and just the ordinary young girls who shared a table/train with us along the way.
Some had stories to tell the most had experienced little more than being stared at (uncomfortable but hardly molestation!!)

The really honest ones related how suprised they were at just how easy and safe it was for them in India having heard a multitude of horror stories before they left home!!

As I have said before this is the particular axe I grind here on IM information or personal experience blown out of proportion trying masquerade as the way India is!!
My years of experience coupled with input from my wife convince me that your representation of the truth is not anything like the experience of most tourists!!
All the bad things that happen happen because there are shit people in India as anywhere else, their actions are deplorable and I think you would find the majority of Indian men would agree on this.
Beach hit it on the head these men belong in another catagory they shouldn't be seen as the norm!!
But your contention that all men are horndogs and some of the other insinuations you have made here are deeply offensive to the many Indian guys here on IM and to Indian men in General.
Why didn't you answer the question as to why many many women walk home in the dark safely, arrive in strange cities no problem,have meals with Indian men.
This is a fact, one you studiuosly ignore in your quest to be right!!
Could it be because that doesn't fit into your world or the picture your trying to paint.
You mention how only girls talk to girls about this problem is that an extension of the way toursts in a group usually get round to
being down on everything Indian, everybody seems to have a bunch of negative stories to share,
I really wonder why some people travel at all it seems to be no more than an exercise in criticism!!

#34 Jul 27th, 2004, 04:03
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#34
Anyways.... There is a beautyfull movie on the subject, monk leaving faith for sex.. Its called "Samsara" and its really worth a view for the amazing Ladkh scenery alone! Check it out!!!.
#35 Jul 27th, 2004, 04:12
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#35
I am not a female, not a backpacker (trekking in the Himalaya is not exactly backpacking), and have not talked to young "white" females extensively on the groping issue.

What I have seen is : it is not as endemic as suggested. It does happen, as it would happen in any big city. The victims are generally the "exposedly dressed" white females. This is cuz they are seen as "easy" females. Conservatively dressed females may face the situation, but only 20 per cent of their "exposed" sisters. This is in general.

Indian females also face it, especially in Delhi buses.

If you do not want to face such a situation, stay away from the tourist traps and the popular "white" hangouts and you actually will be pleasantly surprised.
The Universe is an ellipsoid?... or a Spheroid?? If the sphere smiles... it becomes an ellipse. This IS Creation.
#36 Jul 27th, 2004, 04:18
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#36
mpop I don't want you off this site!!!
You are very mistaken there as you are if your saying I've become mpop on the TT
And I'm not criticising you as a person as you rightfully say I don't know you!!
I do reserve the right crticise the opinions you publish publically on this forum!! (forum = place for discussion)
What do you think you can say what ever you feel like and nobody should question it!!
Which planet are you from??
That is arrogance in anybodys book.
And I think your a little paranoid about me wanting to see the back of you, I think we've disagreed twice or three times at most?
If you will insist on posting inflamatory comments at least be mature enough to argue your case rationally!!
Instead of just telling everybody to shut up that's not very becoming!!
In this whole thread all you've done is made your comments then got pissed at anyone who disagreed with you!!
Ask yourself is that the way to be ???
#37 Aug 2nd, 2004, 14:03
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#37

Question Curiosity

is getting the better of me. Supposing that some of these "femme hunters" from McLeodganj (or wherever) are prowling around at IM, a coupla questions:

Q 1: What do you look for in the male? And why ONLY Tibetans? (monks or not monks) Personally i feel Kashmiri males are very good looking followed by Punjabi males..... can't say much for their "brains" tho. I suppose allaya have heard the story where God started distributing "brains"; God started from S. India ..... & for distributing "looks" God started from N. India.....

Q 2: Obviously knowing that those men (Tibetan or non) want nothing but a way to migrate to "UK or USA" (in India, these two Countries mean the "World" or maybe "Out of India") and obviously knowing that there is no "love" in the relationship here, why, for the life of me; would a "white" female "want" a "Tibetan-male" from India? (It is quite feasible/possible to get an equally selfish male in your Home Country? na?)

Any answers from other males/females??
#38 Aug 2nd, 2004, 16:10
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#38

my 2c

Hello everyone!! fantastic site, Mike, a huge thank you!!!

Trekker, i have never been to McLeod Ganj, and I am not looking for a Tibetan bf, but as a "westernised" woman i may attempt to answer your Qs (in truth i just wanted to try my wings at new IM )

1. why Tibetans? (i agree Kashmiri eyes are worth a little heart-break ) i guess it is a compassion thing, it feels great to be a "saviour" of a little refugee boy from Tibet, or so it may look like... Tibet is HYPE in the West at the moment, thanks to Dalai Lama and what he is doing to promote Free Tibet. So, to bring back a Tibetan bf would probably be like for a US couple to adopt a Vietanmese child during the Vietnam War

that's IMO no real life stories that i know of.

2. AT, when people are in love there is no telling what they can convince themselves of
#39 Aug 2nd, 2004, 16:37
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#39

Unhappy Thnx fr d answrs

Volga, Thanks. Your Ans no 1 seems very much plausible. HYPE.

As for Ans No 2..... I have always understood LOVE as "I am willing to give up everything, including my Life, if need be... to the ONE i love". Now here if i am a female, i somehow know the other person "loves me" cuz he wants a US visa... & there is a definite selfishness here. Will i not question "the rest of the equation" after accepting this "one selfish motive"?? The obvious answer is staring at me in the face "he wants me for my visa"; AND "he does not want me for my own sake, for what i am, better or worse." Is this trade off done so casually?

But then, when one thinks one is in "love", one is blinded to the most obvious; is it? or isn't it?

And then again, if one wants to be so casual abt it, why not have a "fling" with them at McLeod instead of carting them all the way "home"?? As if people in New Jersey will make you a Mayor or something for this noble deed. (NJ is just an example.)

Beats me, really beats me..??!! ?? I don't want further explanations, just thinking aloud... i may never understand this at all.
#40 Aug 2nd, 2004, 16:49
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#40
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberhippie And mike I think you've also got it wrong!! The women I seen in Dharamsala were only too willing to listen and react to the sob story of the Tibetens!! You make it sound like this all happens despite the best intentions of our whiter than white western girls!!
To be honest the way you put it makes it sound like girls don't have a brain in their head!! " An easy target" rubbish most of them have a tibeten youth on their arm because that's the way they like it!!

But to describe them all as victims is stretching the truth just a little!!
I do agree with you cyberhippie that I made a bad generalization on this topic and as one girl said to me "hey when's the next time I will get to be with a Tibetan" sort of summed it up. Hey as a guy I have said similar lines like that so fair is fair.

Mike
#41 Aug 2nd, 2004, 17:03
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#41
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidTrekker Now here if i am a female, i somehow know the other person "loves me" cuz he wants a US visa... & there is a definite selfishness here. Will i not question "the rest of the equation" after accepting this "one selfish motive"?? The obvious answer is staring at me in the face "he wants me for my visa"; AND "he does not want me for my own sake, for what i am, better or worse."
AT, you (and I) may never understand this... it is a cultural difference to be accepted. we are both coming from a different world, politely called "emerging markets", where a relationship with a person from the "first world" country can be viewed as a ticket OUT. a ticket to safety, to security, to no-worries for the rest of your life what you are going to eat tomorrow (the governments here are doing a great job ensuring everyone has food and shelter incl those who don't work). for ppl from the "first world" the ticket concept may not be so OBVIOUS as for you and me.

I would be interested to hear other opinions, though, as i don't qualify as a Westerner with my Russian passport i wonder if I would be attractive enough of a pray for the Tibetans gold-diggers shall we do a little experiment?

i also stand by what i said: there is no telling what people can convince themselves of...

added by Edit: i forgot to mention, AT, that this person who got out on a "ticket" will likely to have to stick around playing a good husband for several years until he gets his own "first world" passport"
#42 Aug 2nd, 2004, 17:23
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#42

Wink

Yes, Volga.... the "ticket out" concept is very difficult for the Westerner to understand; cuz prolly, "social security" is taken for granted.

When in love, one can convince oneself and submit to any delusion.... i fully agree. But then can you REALLY fall in LOVE(?) as soon as you get off the bus at McLeod??! Or maybe a week later? Is it THAT easy?

added later: Volga, you are too good a person to experiment with tibetan gold diggers. It involves "karma". Now why would you incur such negative karma? If you genuinely like someone, its different. Experimenting (with ppl, that is) for its own sake is very "negative" karma.
Last edited by AvidTrekker; Aug 2nd, 2004 at 17:29.. Reason: missed something
#43 Aug 2nd, 2004, 18:44
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#43
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberhippie News flash men every where are a load of horn dogs
Yep, men are horn dogs and women are whores.
And that my friends is the unembellished truth about this so called humanity
** Humor is Freedom **
#44 Aug 2nd, 2004, 18:46
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#44

Talking

hi gals, i'm a typical indian male of 24 yrs who wud like to get out of my country....i hold an indian passport and wud preferably like someone with a u.s or e.u passport...
i can cook ,clean, take care of ur babies or even ur parents...i am 5feet 9 inches and am not great looking but not bad looking too...it is too expensive and far away to go to mcleodganj...i'm looking for a sugarmomma.....pls help me...sos sos sos

volga- a russian passport wud do too cos in a couple of yrs it might join the e.u...

p.s: i can read , write and speak good english...also i give good massages...
#45 Aug 2nd, 2004, 19:25
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#45


hash, i am only interested in prospective partners with us and eu passports

AT, i was JOKING about experimenting!!

(is this thread turning into something that will upset our mods?? sorry!!)

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