Somewhat sick in Delhi - advice

Noodle · Dec 18th, 2006, 16:35

Hi all!

Glad Annie is recovering!

Just want to say I'm glad the discussion developed as it has. I was horrified to read people trying to buy antibiotics without medical supervision, or recommending them on a forum, doctor or not. As Nick pointed out "unnecessary usage, over-prescribing and not taking a whole course" are some of the problems of self medications. Additionally, antibiotica can have side effects, even serious ones. Norfloxacin for example can lead to "seizures, mental/mood changes (including rare thoughts of suicide), persistent sore throat/fever, vision changes, hearing loss, change in amount or appearance of urine, yellowing of the eyes/skin, fainting, fast/slow/irregular heartbeat, easy bruising/bleeding, numbness/tingling of arms/legs, tendon damage" (source: medicinenet.com), while ofloxacin can cause "sleep problems, vaginal discomfort, vision problems, ringing in the ears, muscle/tendon pain or tenderness, unusual weakness, mental or mood changes, unsteadiness, seizures, fainting, yellowing of the skin or eyes, unusual bleeding or bruising" (same source).

Anyone, doctor or layman, who recommends ANY antibiotic without seeing the person and knowing their general physical state is imo careless and irresponsible.

What would you all have done if Gautam had come back reporting that Annie took the recommended norfloxacin and then got dizzy and fell down the stairs ... ????

Please!

drzog · Dec 18th, 2006, 17:18

most of these issues are already discussed this threadhttp://www.indiamike.com/india/showthread.php?p=271575#post27 1575

There are numerous professional national medical services that operate without seeing the patient in WEstern countries, on a non-local basis worldwide that provide clinical management to patients via experienced practitioners with air tight IT.

See this site...for an Australian example. They have proved their success. https://hcsa.ozdocsonline.com.au//index.asp?

Primum non nocere.

machadinha · Dec 18th, 2006, 17:25

The Australian site has had its security certificate withdrawn so I at least can't see it... Which doesn't tell us anything about its validity btw, I just can't see it.

I know of such programs for long-term treatment, even beginning from point zero (and usually involving some 1:1 situation eventually in case of anything serious btw, and presumably having plenty to do with spending cuts) but for acute situations like the one at hand?... I have my doubts. At least they'd be professionals trained in dealing with the intricacies of web queries then I'd guess. My guess is if you log in from India with an acute stomach disorder they'd tell you to go see a doctor like any professional should, and so the circle goes round... Or like you say they'd be well-trained to handle this (or at least that's what one might hope for, contrary to appearances by now perhaps I'm no great fan of the medical profession but it beats dabbling in homeopathy when combating giardiasis et al. I think.)

drzog · Dec 18th, 2006, 19:46

Quote:

beats dabbling in homeopathy when combating giardiasis et al. I think

have to agree there, and i have studied it.

hence we come once again to the importance of prevention, as in my sticky post...dont get sick, invest in your health, look after your belly and this issue does not emerge, and everyone can be happy.

Quote:

I seem to remember someone telling me the difference between a poison and a medicine is a matter of dosage, so that fits right in.

Rich i think the word is Hormesis, a new understanding of Dose-response, although this was orignially proposed formally by Paracelsus "All things are poison and nothing is without poison, only the dose permits something not to be poisonous."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

An emergent property of allostatic biologic systems is ‘‘Hormesis’’ referring to an active compensatory response to a low dose toxin or stress that improves an organisms homeostasis and optimization (vitality) in multiple systems.

Homeopathy has an historical association with hormesis via Hugo Shulz the homeopath, suggesting this as the reason hormesis remained unpopular in biological sciences during the 20th century. There is no evidence that modern homeopathy acts hormetically. Hahnemann may have misinterpreted hormetic effects as a manifestation of a mysterious vital force during apparent potentisation (aphorism 270).

Quote:

Am I right in saying you shouldn't rely on tea for liquids tho?

Yes of course

“Study the science of art.
Study the art of science.
Develop your senses - especially learn how to see.
Realise that everything connects to everything else”
Leonardo Da Vinci
- Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind

Rich Anpoor · Dec 18th, 2006, 20:41

That Paracelsus quote was exactly what I was thinking off. Thanks Doc!

gautam · Dec 19th, 2006, 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noodle

Hi all!

Glad Annie is recovering!

...

...What would you all have done if Gautam had come back reporting that Annie took the recommended norfloxacin and then got dizzy and fell down the stairs ... ????

Please!

Didnt do ur homework while posting

Jason below is the therad owner & not me.

I was reffering to this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johngradycole

Just to let all of the kind people on this thread know, Annie seems to be responding very well to medication. She managed to get up and walk around a little today. She is back in bed now, but is clearly recovering.

We both really appreciate everyone's kindness in taking the trouble to offer their advice and best wishes. Now we are looking forward to Annie's complete recovery so that we can go on and enjoy the rest of India.

Heartfelt thanks from Annie, who told me to say that she thinks IM is the best site in the world.

Jason

Noodle · Dec 19th, 2006, 14:43

Oops! My bad!

johngradycole · Dec 24th, 2006, 14:03

Not to worry - no offence taken this end!

Jason

Proper reply to all the recent messages coming up as soon as I can find a place to get email access for a bit longer than this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noodle

Oops! My bad!

johngradycole · Dec 27th, 2006, 13:44

Hi there,

Thanks to everyone for their comments and symapthy for Annie. I'm terribly sorry to hear that my earlier post "horrified" anyone. Of course in everyday life I wouldn't be one to dash to the chemist's and try to buy antibiotics without a prescription. On the other hand, I've rarely seen anyone as ill as Annie was, and in a foreign country that's pretty frightening and you want whatever advice and aid you can get. We were very lucky to be staying in a hotel with internet access at the time so I really wanted advice from the regular IM-ers who have gone through this kind of thing before. A vaguely interesting side issue: I had a bout of acute gastroenteritis myself about a week ago and at the time all I wanted was a quick and painless death. It was just plain impossible either to get to a doctor (I could barely make it as far as the bathroom) or to get a doctor to the hotel. After a couple of hours of fruitless phone calls, Annie managed to speak to a doctor on the phone, and described my symptoms. He just said "Take norofaloxin" (sp?). While I agree that you don't want to be taking medicines unless the doctor has seen you, sometimes you just can't get to see a doctor!

I think my point is that, yes, I absolutely agree with everyone who has said that the cavalier use of medicines is a very bad thing indeed. That said, there are circumstances under which the most reasonable and rational of us do things we wouldn't do otherwise.

Anyway, a quick update on Annie's condition for those who have been so kind as to ask: she seems much better but even after a couple of weeks is still rather weak and has some stomach pain. We took her to a hospital yesterday and the doctor prescribed a different type of norofaloxin (sp?) for an amoebic infection, saying it should get better in a few days. I really hope so.

Meanwhile I asked her to marry me, and she said yes.

Jason

steven_ber · Dec 27th, 2006, 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by johngradycole

Meanwhile I asked her to marry me, and she said yes.

Jason

Great news, congratulations.

I have visions of two people, both exhausted of all energy, both feeling like shit, both struggling to find the strength to lift their heads, and one saying to the other "Will you marry me?", the other replying "Yes".

Should make for a great dinner conversation topic for years to come.

capt_mahajan · Dec 27th, 2006, 14:03

congratulations.

she has an out now. you caught her in a weak moment

Nick-H · Dec 27th, 2006, 14:49

Congratulations!

Don't mind us for having a bit of controversy along the way

--- we try to keep IndiMike free of real flame wars, but a good disagreement never hurt

And people are regularly horrified at stuff that is daily life in India

. Maybe that's part of its charm!

Nick-H · Dec 27th, 2006, 14:52

And, hey!

If you can love each other with gastroenteritis you can get through anything together

.

Digital Drifter · Dec 27th, 2006, 20:51

Yeah, Congratulations!

Any deep conversation in the future can be prefaced with....

We been through this shit before......

Noodle · Dec 27th, 2006, 23:38

Aaaawww, how very nice!

"I'll marry you, amoebas and all ..."

Nice timing

No, seriously, my warmest congrats!

If it doesn't clear up after this new round of antibiotics (norfloxacin it is, I guess), have a stool sample sent to a lab for bacterial and parasitic testing as well an antibiotic chart, because then norfloxacin obviously isn't effective (or not really) against whatever plagues Annie's tummy.

But hope that won't be necessary!

All the best!

PS: I'm surprised no doctor would come to see her. Here where I live this usually isn't a problem at all.

Dec 18th, 2006, 17:18	#62
drzog Based On A True Story Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 105	most of these issues are already discussed this threadhttp://www.indiamike.com/india/showthread.php?p=271575#post27 1575 There are numerous professional national medical services that operate without seeing the patient in WEstern countries, on a non-local basis worldwide that provide clinical management to patients via experienced practitioners with air tight IT. See this site...for an Australian example. They have proved their success. https://hcsa.ozdocsonline.com.au//index.asp? Primum non nocere. __________________ yours in health http://drzog.blogspot.com

Dec 18th, 2006, 17:25	#63
machadinha Not Your Guru Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: yörp Posts: 11,445	The Australian site has had its security certificate withdrawn so I at least can't see it... Which doesn't tell us anything about its validity btw, I just can't see it. I know of such programs for long-term treatment, even beginning from point zero (and usually involving some 1:1 situation eventually in case of anything serious btw, and presumably having plenty to do with spending cuts) but for acute situations like the one at hand?... I have my doubts. At least they'd be professionals trained in dealing with the intricacies of web queries then I'd guess. My guess is if you log in from India with an acute stomach disorder they'd tell you to go see a doctor like any professional should, and so the circle goes round... Or like you say they'd be well-trained to handle this (or at least that's what one might hope for, contrary to appearances by now perhaps I'm no great fan of the medical profession but it beats dabbling in homeopathy when combating giardiasis et al. I think.) __________________ Reading tips, all picked up at IndiaMike : INDAX's A Comprehensive Guide To India / Dinoj Surendran's Desi Humor / ITHVC on Culture Shock & Travel Health / JetLag Travel Guides For the Undiscerning Traveller / India Travel Links

Dec 18th, 2006, 20:41	#65
Rich Anpoor Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Kailash Posts: 166	That Paracelsus quote was exactly what I was thinking off. Thanks Doc! __________________ say hello at myspace.com/zappasearcher The only law that applies to us, the law that protects the life, liberty rights and property of all living souls. "If only lawyers understand the written laws, they are the only ones who should obey them"

Dec 27th, 2006, 14:49	#72
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 28,426	Congratulations! Don't mind us for having a bit of controversy along the way --- we try to keep IndiMike free of real flame wars, but a good disagreement never hurt And people are regularly horrified at stuff that is daily life in India . Maybe that's part of its charm! __________________ . Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

Dec 27th, 2006, 20:51	#74
Digital Drifter bang a whore? Bangalore Dammit! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,878	Yeah, Congratulations! Any deep conversation in the future can be prefaced with.... We been through this shit before...... __________________ Click here for the Indiamike train guide in PDF

Dec 18th, 2006, 16:35	#61
Noodle Crazy for the furry ones Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Pune, India Posts: 1,026	Hi all! Glad Annie is recovering! Just want to say I'm glad the discussion developed as it has. I was horrified to read people trying to buy antibiotics without medical supervision, or recommending them on a forum, doctor or not. As Nick pointed out "unnecessary usage, over-prescribing and not taking a whole course" are some of the problems of self medications. Additionally, antibiotica can have side effects, even serious ones. Norfloxacin for example can lead to "seizures, mental/mood changes (including rare thoughts of suicide), persistent sore throat/fever, vision changes, hearing loss, change in amount or appearance of urine, yellowing of the eyes/skin, fainting, fast/slow/irregular heartbeat, easy bruising/bleeding, numbness/tingling of arms/legs, tendon damage" (source: medicinenet.com), while ofloxacin can cause "sleep problems, vaginal discomfort, vision problems, ringing in the ears, muscle/tendon pain or tenderness, unusual weakness, mental or mood changes, unsteadiness, seizures, fainting, yellowing of the skin or eyes, unusual bleeding or bruising" (same source). Anyone, doctor or layman, who recommends ANY antibiotic without seeing the person and knowing their general physical state is imo careless and irresponsible. What would you all have done if Gautam had come back reporting that Annie took the recommended norfloxacin and then got dizzy and fell down the stairs ... ???? Please!

Dec 19th, 2006, 14:43	#67
Noodle Crazy for the furry ones Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Pune, India Posts: 1,026	Oops! My bad!

Dec 27th, 2006, 13:44	#69
johngradycole Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Scotland Posts: 56	Hi there, Thanks to everyone for their comments and symapthy for Annie. I'm terribly sorry to hear that my earlier post "horrified" anyone. Of course in everyday life I wouldn't be one to dash to the chemist's and try to buy antibiotics without a prescription. On the other hand, I've rarely seen anyone as ill as Annie was, and in a foreign country that's pretty frightening and you want whatever advice and aid you can get. We were very lucky to be staying in a hotel with internet access at the time so I really wanted advice from the regular IM-ers who have gone through this kind of thing before. A vaguely interesting side issue: I had a bout of acute gastroenteritis myself about a week ago and at the time all I wanted was a quick and painless death. It was just plain impossible either to get to a doctor (I could barely make it as far as the bathroom) or to get a doctor to the hotel. After a couple of hours of fruitless phone calls, Annie managed to speak to a doctor on the phone, and described my symptoms. He just said "Take norofaloxin" (sp?). While I agree that you don't want to be taking medicines unless the doctor has seen you, sometimes you just can't get to see a doctor! I think my point is that, yes, I absolutely agree with everyone who has said that the cavalier use of medicines is a very bad thing indeed. That said, there are circumstances under which the most reasonable and rational of us do things we wouldn't do otherwise. Anyway, a quick update on Annie's condition for those who have been so kind as to ask: she seems much better but even after a couple of weeks is still rather weak and has some stomach pain. We took her to a hospital yesterday and the doctor prescribed a different type of norofaloxin (sp?) for an amoebic infection, saying it should get better in a few days. I really hope so. Meanwhile I asked her to marry me, and she said yes. Jason

Dec 27th, 2006, 14:03	#71
capt_mahajan Dis member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: India Posts: 10,875	congratulations. she has an out now. you caught her in a weak moment

Dec 27th, 2006, 14:52	#73
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 28,426	And, hey! If you can love each other with gastroenteritis you can get through anything together .

Dec 27th, 2006, 23:38	#75
Noodle Crazy for the furry ones Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Pune, India Posts: 1,026	Aaaawww, how very nice! "I'll marry you, amoebas and all ..." Nice timing No, seriously, my warmest congrats! If it doesn't clear up after this new round of antibiotics (norfloxacin it is, I guess), have a stool sample sent to a lab for bacterial and parasitic testing as well an antibiotic chart, because then norfloxacin obviously isn't effective (or not really) against whatever plagues Annie's tummy. But hope that won't be necessary! All the best! PS: I'm surprised no doctor would come to see her. Here where I live this usually isn't a problem at all.

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