How greedy can they get?.

Honey Bee

Shanshank sorry, but I was under the impression that this was a Goan thread.
I think that if you knew the real HB you would be surprised. I don't see why we have to justify ourselves but At home we help the "indians" and indian friends who we have met in India over the years. Some have been staying with us this summer. The time has passed for me to go "someplace to work" for the locals, but we can hold up our heads with help we have given them, and I am not talking about being a tourist and just throwing money at them.

There are more important things in life than money.

shashank.aggarwal

No one is arguing that tourism doesn't contribute. The argument is with the point that tourism is the one that is running Goa..I hope people understand the difference between "being a part of the Goan economy" and "being the core of Goan economy."

And secondly, the major concern is that people see everything with a perspective of Goa vs Rest of India..

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shashank.aggarwal

HB, I apologize if you got offended. However just go through posts of other Indian members in response to your posts in this thread and some other threads, and you will realize that most of us do not agree with your thinking here.

You have to come out of FN supporting Goa mode, and get back to FN loving Goa mode, and enjoying Goa mode, FN caring for Goa mode.

Maybe when I am in Goa in next few months we can catch up, and help clear each others misconceptions.

PS : And Nick, when you say one chooses his/her home and then issues concerning it, I guess you are very well aware what happens when locals start to kick out non locals from an Area..

kmalik

Honey Bee -

I do not question your love for Goa, for some of its people or its welfare. Neither do I doubt that there are greedy people there, nor do I support tourist/dual pricing. And, I even agree that Goa (and may be the world) would be a better place without the people who put individual rationality (greed) over the group welfare.

However, there are two aspects to this discussion:

• There are excessively greedy (and other sorts of other undesirable) people everywhere - and they do not go away because we imagine how much better the life would be without them. And, we must accept greed as an individually rational behavior, one that must be tempered with the concern for the group welfare. It is the responsibility of the government to set up rules that keep such behavior in check and maximize the group welfare. Such rules and their enforcement is sadly lacking in India. The reasons range from the state and central governments in India not quite being up to the task to corruption, to perhaps a simple realization that it takes some time to transition. All the same, lacking such structures - what you see is an unavoidable reality that is not about to change.
• The complainers and their attitudes.
  • Indians constitute one set of the complainers. The same people complaining sometimes would not take into account the inflation rate in the country, the income increases they themselves have enjoyed while complaining about the increased price of goods and services. The concern for the welfare of the working poor isn't often a commonly held feeling amongst the Indian middle class. In any case, my response to their complaints is to say: Exercise your rights as citizens, demand that the governments are honest and develop structures that curb individual status and greed to maximize the welfare of all citizens, and - most importantly - look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself what you are doing to improve the situation.
  • The foreigners complaining about the situation. While nothing wrong with that per se, they must be mindful of the context. First of all, the most negative stuff comes from those stung by the property buying scandals. These threads spew venom (particularly on the ex-pat sites ) and want to make everything the fault of the greedy Indians. While I do not dismiss the Goans / Indians participation in these scams, it is clear that the illegal property buyers knew or should have known the law and were either ignorant, or actively ignoring or trying to circumvent it. Surely it must hurt when enforcement catches up, but hardly one in which they will find sympathy from lot of others either. When, it appears, that this group is complaining about greed in Goa, the complaint is read and responded to in that context. I do believe that it is incumbent on the foreigners complaining about any country to be particularly respectful of the sovereign rights of its people and mindful of their own status as visitors in framing their complaints. A constructive and appropriately phrased complaint will find a productive response, but one that comes across as whiny, threatening (to take your money elsewhere) or less-than even-handed will get the brickbats.

Sorry for the long post - but I thought you deserved a better explanation.

Nick-H

Well, yes --- which is why I add that this has not (and hopefully never will) happen to me.

Whatever complaints I may have about the governments of my State, or of India, they are not trying to evict me.

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Honey Bee

Well we agree on one thing - there is Indian logic and UK logic and never the twain shall meet - so we should agree to differ

Yes, it would be nice to meet up as long as we don't have to clear up the misconceptions, I definately go into my 1970's mode but feel if we get into the above discussion it would be

So perhaps we could have a few and discuss the erosion of the beach by the Taj leaving the pipes which were 6 ft under being exposed, with the glass part of the Marquis destroyed by the sea and the statue's only left standing. Calamari washed away etc. Is this the fault of the River Princess. This part of the beach now is turning into another Coco Beach.

shashank.aggarwal

Nick, it was not about you...maybe you tried to put in some sense of humor in it, but for me its a serious issue. Not only involving the expats, but also people of different state and culture living in different parts of country.

PS : Even though I am not a stern opposer of dual pricing in monuments, however it has happened that when I was visiting some monuments in Delhi with my obviously 'white' friends, and I found out that they were Indian tax payers, I ensured that they entered by paying Indian rates. And I have also ensured that, my friends who are not white, however obviously 'Indian' but they hold foreign passport and are here on tourist visa, pay full fees as expected by a foreigner.

jcbrum

I can't go with commenting on "pay full fees as expected by a foreigner".How on earth can you justify that comment.If you were in London or more likely anywhere else in the World everybody pays the same, whatever their skin colour.

machadinha

Skin color and nationality are two quite distinct issues though.

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Haylo

Actually, that is not correct. The Commandery for example, a very important museum, allows locals to visit free of charge, with only tourists paying the entry fee.

In India, the way I see it, as a Westerner I gladly pay an admission charge which will help preserve and maintain the things I'm having the privilege of visiting.

Locals get a discounted rate, without which many Indians would not be able to experience their own rich heritage, and without which these monuments would only be enjoyed by privileged foreigners. Frankly I think that would be plain wrong.

machadinha

Oh, the price differential debate has been done here over and over again.

I'd agree and have argued before that nationals and residents most anywhere and certainly in much of "the West" will enjoy a number of schemes and privileges to help them get by in daily life, or if they're financially entitled to it, and that they may not be readily aware of, but take pretty much for granted or as their natural right instead (all the while complaining about tax rates and "the left" of course). Which will typically be less or not accessible to foreigners or newcomers, of whatever skin color. Including the temporary kind, aka tourists. (Think of housing subsidies and public health care and tax arrangements, such as they may all be, and whatnot too, simple things like museum passes and free cultural magazines in your own language and stuff quite apart.)

The debate usually comes up here with regards to monument entry fees and so on though. I have a feeling if Goan expats now talk of dual pricing, they must have something more drastic and structural in mind. I'm not sure what though (dual rent pricing or so? Double taxes?) Unless they mean fancy local joints or apartments and stuff are expensive, as in this thread's original post; as already noted, that's not dual pricing though, that's just an expensive joint which is likely cashing in on your own status as long as people are willing to pay for it, you are free to go to a cheaper one tho' you may then have to accept it doesn't quite live up to your standards. (And I very much doubt if such a place would charge locals any less, or would even welcome them.) We have restaurants and housing and entire neighborhoods and towns where I live that I can't afford (as well as plenty a cultural institution), I'm sure we all do. The ones I do frequent and tend to like, others might consider a little run-down. To each their own, and all that.

jcbrum

Ok,fair enough there maybe one or two examples.So what you are saying is that all tourists whatever country they visit should pay more than the locals ?.If that's the csse then i agree.

Nick-H

Oh noooooooooeeeeessss.

Somebody mentioned dual pricing .

Shashank, I think I totally failed to get make the point that because I have never been 'targeted' by the government, I can look on, and not truly understand how those how have must feel.

skk

re: HB

I for one appreciate your viewpoint - especially when I read slightly offkey stuff, quickly summarized as "if you don't like it, go home".

As part of a generation that had this thrown at us in the UK when the discrimination was pointed out - many responses occurred - the Asian Youth Movement ( AYM ) and their slogan - "Here to Stay, Here to Fight" was one example.

Me, in due course, I DID go - but not "home" but to the US.

Your mileage is going to vary; I'll follow the conversation here with interest - but discrimination is WRONG.

-skk

machadinha

Try and turn that around to consider that everyone pays the same, but locals may have schemes in place to make cultural affairs more accessible to them.

Sounds suddenly very different, doesn't it? It is like that in many countries.

The cultural and public transport passes etc. of various kinds we have in The Netherlands are technically available to all, however they're usually not worth your money unless you spend a longer period here. There'll be some similar deals to accommodate tourists, which will still work out substantially more expensive than they would to someone who lives here though, and hence has the time to take full advantage of the better passes and deals (and the money I might add, which will still be a requirement -- it has been estimated that to take full advantage of a pass originally designed for people on the dole here would take about three times that income. Since that caused some embarrassment, it is now indeed a cultural pass to be purchased "by all" -- those on welfare just get it for free.)

I'd be surprised if most of this works essentially very different anywhere in Europe, and it doesn't seem to in those places I know. And I'll bet if India had something similar in place, i.e., same prices, but a discount for nationals, no one or very few would squeak about it. And it would suddenly no longer sound like "price discrimination," but like a sensible way to hopefully allow one's residents access to their and others' cultural heritage rather. And in a country where, we'll all realize, many people aren't exactly well-off, to put it very mildly.