configuring broadband/PC power protection/cable-satellite TV in India...

capt_mahajan

Damn computers.

Looks like we are being programmed instead of them.

Aishah

I've been using my computer for 12 months now when invertor is on and it seems to be o.k. When the fan runs there is a very slight hum...but the computer cord to power outlet has what looks like a surge protector or something between it and the power point line. Maybe some sort of voltage regulator ? too late at night for me to read the fine print on it!
As for being on an extension line, phone ringing me answering, absolutely no problem. No funny noise on the line.. doesn't knock out the connection as possibly predicted by the technician.
So looking like the same as yours Dilliwalla, thank goodness.
Also I notice the modem/router doesn't always cut out when there are switch overs between invertor and mains power..

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shashank.aggarwal

DW, I know what you mean when you say that computers and other 'sensitive' gadgets should not be run on inverter..

However I also have a UPS and my inverter is connected to the UPS, in case of power failure, my computer gets the supply from UPS and then in a second the UPS takes the supply from Inverter. My UPS makes a strange noise when it is running from the Inverter, however I hope any harm that might be done would be on the poor UPS and not the computer itself...

About the Sin wave and square wave, my inverter guy, who is a family friend told that all branded inverters sold in the market which claim that they have sin wave capability, are actually fooling people, as they provide sign wave upto a particular load on the inverter, i.e. around 100 W(Or whatever unit it was), if inverter is running on a heavier load, it would not be providing sin waves. So a computer with a 17" monitor, and 450W SMPS anyhow would have a starting load of around 500-600W and after it settles down, it would be close to 300W (hypothetical figure)..so you actually cannot get an inverter to provide sin wave to a desktop PC...

This is what I was told, not sure how true OR logical does it sound !!

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shashank.aggarwal

aren't you running a laptop ?? do you still need to run it on inverter ?

Dilliwala

It sounds highly plausible. My UPS guy, who knows his stuff, tells me that even the big companies lie about their UPS's, re rating/capacity etc.

All I know is the weird sound coming when running the PC of the inverter is not good for it in the long run. Even inverter-via-UPS is not great, I know a lot of folks do it and mostly there won't be side-effects but avoidable in the long run. In any case the UPS/PC will drain the inverter faster than other gadgets/lights do.

brownboy66

Hi Dilli

I'm surprised how long this thread is going on (Aishah has breathed new life into it) - but its seems to be developing into a nice general discussion about things broadband...

so a couple of comments if I may,

So the above registry entry seems to say if you're running a network with quality of service (QoS) enabled, there is a configurable reserve. For those who haven't heard of this (don't mean you Dilli) quality of service is where different types of internet traffic is graded to enable some information to be sent, and arrive at destination ahead of other types of information. Very important for things like Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP). Typically for a voice conversation you need less than 400 miliseconds of delay - otherwise it turns into a walkie talkie conversation. So either you get a big pipe with very little on it, or you use something like QoS

So in order to make QoS work it requires a minimum of two devices - one to send and one to receive. In other words even if you enable QoS at your end - its pointless unless its enable at the destination your sending to. So I can't really see the above registry change making much difference overall. Secondly - adhoc changes to the windows registry is generally not a good habit to get into either. That's my two cents worth anyway.

yep - anything with a motor will suffer with a square sine wave (like cooling fans on a PC power supply, CPU cooler, graphics card cooling fan, etc). What this relates to is the fact that household power supplies are alternating current. The power goes in one direction and then reverses so to speak. I wont go into detail about rotating magnetic fields within electric motors and how this works - suffice to say that with a pure sine wave (where the alternating current changes smoothly from one direction to another) - motors can handle this without a problem. With a square sine wave - the change from one direction to another is abrupt - hence the humming noise as the current changes suddenly and the rotor struggles to keep up.

Re the power supply to routers - Sorry Dilli but in general any consumer device that is designed to work with ethernet will most likely be mains powered. The reason for this is that most consumer ethernet (i.e the LAN interface integrated into laptops, PCs, and routers, etc) is by and large un-powered (unlike USB which is a power interface). Hence you can charge your cell phone off a USB port - or in your case I guess Dilli - its powering your DSL switch - but powered ethernet at present is mostly confined to things like corporate VoIP networks which use a centrally powered switch to power a hundred or so VoIP extensions (so that if power to the building goes down then at least the phones will still work).

For powered ethernet to work, you have to have a switch supplying the power (as above), and your LAN devices have to be capable of taking power off the LAN (which most standard LAN interface cards don't - because they're stuck into a PC which inturn is plug into the mains - plus powered ethernet doesn't supply enough power to run a PC). Not sure what the story would be with routers that have both a USB and ethernet port. I'm presuming that would have to be mains powered as if you wanted to use ethernet and didn't have a mains power cord - bugger!

nah...you're right, its bs - wireless routers are no different from standard routers (except for the wireless part of course). What the engineers might be referring to is the "return to default" setting most routers have. Often with routers supplied by ISPs, the defaults have been changed (maybe VPI or VCI settings, stuff like that) - so doing a return to default, or master reset might wipe out all ISP specific information that's already been programmed in.

Dilliwala

bb, mate, thanks for the detailed stuff about sine-wave, QoS, and LAN devices, et al, it's an education reading your posts.

Just a few comments:

"So I can't really see the above registry change making much difference overall. Secondly - adhoc changes to the windows registry is generally not a good habit to get into either. That's my two cents worth anyway."
Yes, as I mentioned I haven't found any difference in browsing speed, of course I wud never have been able to figure out why not without your analysis .
I agree one shudn't play around with the registry directly unless one knows what one's doing. In this case it's just the MMC though, if sys administrators can mess around (and mess up!), then I can mess up, er - I mean mess around, too! But seriously - yes, only play around with the MMC if u are sure of what u're doing (the tweak was fwdd to me by a friend who knows a hell of a lot more than me, so it had been 'vetted' as such).

"Re the power supply to routers - Sorry Dilli but in general any consumer device that is designed to work with ethernet will most likely be mains powered."

Ok, didn't know that. But,.......

"Not sure what the story would be with routers that have both a USB and ethernet port. I'm presuming that would have to be mains powered as if you wanted to use ethernet and didn't have a mains power cord - bugger!"
....when I got this MTNL conn, they lent me a D-link 502T router (with USB and LAN ports) for a day and, becos like u I don't like the idea of having no control over the connection-status, I distinctly remember asking the tech "HOW DO I TURN THE BLOODY THING OFF?!!!" - it had no power switch and was being powered from the bus, i.e. 'Always On' meant exactly that. I was trying it off the USB port though. The guy says I wud have to pull the USB cable out to cut the power supply! I also tried it on a laptop with ethernet-card and it worked fine.

Aishah

Well after reading re invertors I pulled out the power source to laptop - should I need to do this really? It's now running on battery but the router/modem is running on power - it does have one of those plugs that are voltage regulating however. Also, as I mentioned and checked in the light of day there is a very heavy voltage regulator midway on my line from the power point. Would that protect it when invertor is on or should I not be running it at all off invertor? What is consensus of opinion here?
And does running the modem affect the computer too?
In other words during our 2 hours then later 1 hour daily light cuts I should keep my computer totally switched off??

OT - Dilliwalla - do you go to sleep?!!!!

ranjan154

Very informative piece of advise, I appreciate.

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ks_bluechip

Unlike Dilliwlla, I do go to sleep ... but since 13:00Hrs yesterday afternoon, my BB-Internet went to sleep and got up just now ... [except for some Indian websites ... IM, Yahoo Mail, etc. was not accessible]. And now, I am surprised to find myself back-logged with so many posts on this thread. After I catch up, I will add my own questions .. so wait

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brownboy66

anytime Dilli. Glad the explanation didn't send you off to sleep! I think powered ethernet devices will eventually become standard - and LAN cabling can certainly handle it - but at the moment there are only a few devices which are designed to either power a local area network - or get power from a local area network. Thinking back to a previous post - I guess this relates to the fact that ethernet is for networking, while USB is for peripherals. In general most peripherals are low powered (mouse, hub, that sort of thing). Ethernet devices (routers, intelligent switches) require a bit more gunt. Even with USB if I remember rightly - you can attach three devices in serial before you run out of juice and need to plug into mains? I've got an external DVD burner and a 100gig external drive - both plugged into USB 2, both on mains (they need a bit more juice then what is available via USB). The PC has a 650 watt power supply.

And I agree - devices without an on/off switch or an obvious method of rebooting or resetting are immensely annoying!

re the registry changes - not a biggie. Changes to QoS packet scheduling isn't going to affect much I guess. Problems will only occur when someone gets into Regedit and starts tweaking values to see what happens.

he he he he.......what with this, no splitter, and your parallel phone lines - I would love to see you set up!

Hi Aishah. Running on battery now and again is not a bad idea as your laptop battery needs to fully charge and discharge once and a while to remain in good condition (even if it has a lithium Ion battery which has no memory effect - letting the battery discharge completely will still be a good idea).

I'm inclined to suggest that running your router, etc off the inverter is ok, and run the laptop off the mains directly. For a start - your laptop has a battery so it sort of has its own inbuilt UPS. Secondly - you laptop (like all laptops) has a step down transformer which reduces the voltage to a usable level for the laptop (this will either be a rectangular block thing that the power cord attaches too before you plug into the laptop - or it will be built into the laptop). A lot of these power supplies are built for both US and European voltages - so can accept an input from 110volts to 250 volts (which is a huge variation). As such it should be able to handle a few surges (don't get me wrong - it can still get cooked - but the surge is unlikely to get into your laptop).

As for your router - I'm presuming that the voltage regulating cord your talking about is actually a surge protector for your router - which is excellent. Since the router has no moving parts I'm inclined to think is should be ok with the power output from the inverter.

Oh...while I think about it - not many people know that it is possible to fry your pc via the DSL connection if there isn't a surge protector on the phone line. During a thunder storm a lighting strike on the phone line can not only fry your router and phone - but the charge can go right through the router and into your PC/ laptop (if connected) and fry the motherboard, etc. Best bet - if you hear thunder - shut everything off, disconnect power and phonelines, go make a cup of tea (coffee) until the storm has gone.

capt_mahajan

And don't go outside with the tea, else it will be a storm in a teacup.

ks_bluechip

Dilliwala

Aishah,
without being able to give the kind of detailed background that bb has, I have the same to say -
There's no need to be IT-less if the mains-power goes - bb's absolutely right that the laptop's battery shud be used from time to time anyway. I wud also run the laptop of a non-invertor-connected point so that the battery kicks in as soon as the power goes, or if that's not convenient, then simply pull out the mains cord from the comp when the power goes off.
Re the adaptor for the router, again my personal pref wud be to run everything off a UPS, but it shudn't be a prob to run it a while from the invertor. If anything, better for the adaptor to get damaged than the laptop .

The voltage regulator on the main line is a great idea in general, specially for places with high fluctuations, but it won't stop the square-wave from the invertor getting thru to your laptop. Just "pull the plug" on the laptop if need be.

Now u know - I never go to sleep until I've finished reading the expert-advice.

Dilliwala

Actually my setup is as primitive and cheap, er - I mean cost-effective , as it can be, without going back to 386's!
Pretty boring, really. I cud write a manual on 'The Lazyman's Guide to Computers and things IT'.

Never thought of that specifically but it makes sense since it's coming thru the phone line, because.....

.....this is absolutely true, I have experienced it personally. I may have written it elsewhere - Thunderstorm/lightning hits the power line on the road outside, knocks out TV's nearby including ours (thru the stabiliser! Killed that too), and altho the PC/peripherals/UPS were off, damaged (but not killed) a dialup modem! Simply on account of the phone/data line being connected to the wall, no less.
So while I can't say I'm that responsible that I shut everything down in a thunderstorm, I have wised up to the extent that if we lock up and go out of town, I pull all the plugs, phone-lines, whatever - even the cable from the TV/decoder jacks. Oh yes, that's another prime entry-point!

EDIT: (Referring to bold text)....and above all, do NOT start the PC and start a "We've just been hit by lightning!" thread on IM!

Captain's as sharp as a surgeon's knife today.