There we go again..

birds

I won't start with 'B....y Chinese again!' because you may start thinking I have something against them .

But this is gasthly nonetheless!


Eight Tigers Missing in India

Eight adult tigers are missing from the Ranthambore National Park. India has laws to protect wildlife and imposes severe punishment on violators. But lax enforcement, high prices for tiger skins and the use of their bones and claws in traditional medicine in neighboring China have created a thriving trade.

According to a census held in August 2005, Ranthambore had a total of 26 big cats - 21 adult tigers and five cubs younger than 20 months. By October 2006, another census showed a total of 31 tigers in the reserve but only 18 adults and 13 cubs - showing eight adult tigers missing from the count, the newspaper added.

"The sex ratio has improved a lot and we have a very good year with cubs, but all is not well," Fateh Singh Rathore, a former conservator at the tiger reserve, told the newspaper. "We need better patrolling and tracking by the park management if we are serious about saving the tiger."

In 2001, the U.S. National Geographic Society estimated that 5,000 to 7,000 Bengal - or Indian - tigers existed in the wild, about half in India. However, conservationists believe official estimates of tigers in the wild are grossly exaggerated and that the true figure may be closer to 2,000 - or as little as several hundred.

This is not the first time that a large number of tigers have gone missing from Ranthambore; in early 2005 news reports had said that as many as 18 big cats had vanished from the park.



http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/...ap3638493.html

matt67

The poachers are Indian. poor people who are making a living. When you have starving children and a hovel to live in, with open sewers outside your front door and flies living on your childs sores, a tiger could become your salvation and way out of the gutter. so Dont blame the poacher, he is doing what you and i would do in his situation (surprised, try living in his house for a day).

The tiger skins are all bound for Tibet, its a big staging post for all tiger goods. The bones go to china but the skins are worn proudly by every tibetan on every market day. So try blaming the Dalai Lama. (this information is from a BBC programme presented by Attenborough, aired last week in the UK).

So why blame the chinese ??

cyberhippie

Hey Matt I'm all for people getting ahead in life but the picture you paint of the poor poacher isn't wholly accurate. Greed plays a large part in all this. Sure the poacher might be poor, probably a trait he shares with most people in his area. Surprisingly or should I say thankfully, not all turn their hand to wiping out India's tiger. So whilst poverty may be a factor, I'm not at all sure it's an excuse!

Point taken about China not being solely to blame!

ba9rn

CH is right - poverty is no excuse. The culprit here is the market; wherever it is. If there was little/no market for tiger 'parts', there would be no point in poachers risking all to grab them. Look at what happened to ivory poaching when it became illegal to buy it.

__________________
"After the battle, many new ghosts cry. The solitary old man murmurs in his grief." Du Fu

matt67

The market is present and here to stay. Try persuading your government to raise this issue with the chinese...it does not work...Tigers are not important when it comes to trade and relations with the mighty superpower that is China.

So when the market exists and the political will is lacking, purely out of considerations for the home market/economy/jobs etc, the poor poacher on the outskirts of the sanctuary has the temptation to relive his suffering for a few thousand rupees. Why blame him and his greed when your western govrenments with all their clout will put their nations considerations first and not confront the Chinese government for its trade in tiger bones.The poacher thinks of his family, the politicians in western governments think of their constituents.

Noodle

I find greed totally understandable for people living in poor conditions. You can't apply our Western understanding of greed here, we think of it as an unethical sin kind of. For poor people it's totally understandable if they feel greedy. I would.

Who knows, their kids might be ill or haven't had a decent meal in month. I know from a family in Bombay who last year wasn't able to pay for the appr. 1 lakh treatment for their 7 year old daughter who was dying of dengue fever. The hospital did not provide the treatment without pay (they went to several hospitals in Mumbai). The child died.

I would not have blamed them if they had gone and shoot a tiger.

Like matt says it's the governments that are to blame, Chinese as well as Western.

__________________
If in hole
stop digging.

Indian saying

cyberhippie

IF the scenario Matt and noodle portray was the actual situation then I might have more sympathy for the poachers. But you don't wake up to a sick child and become a tiger poacher. That's a flight of fancy, It's an expert occupation to say nothing of secretive. Park authorities are often involved and poachers are repeat offenders and operate in gangs, often not from the local area. Some local help is enlisted to locate habitat (park wardens have been caught furnishing this help, who ARE NOT poor in the general sense)
Ask people in the parks who are also dirt poor what they think of tiger poachers!! You'll not find much support there, as many who live in and around National Parks rely of the tourist trade for jobs. No tigers no tourists!!
Single acts of desperation do occur but they are by no means the norm. The norm is organized gangs, funded by rich city kingpins spread out through India collect info from locals for a price and shoot/poison/electrocute/trap the tigers.

By the way the trade in tiger parts was banned in China in 93 I think!!
Enforcement is the problem, People still think they should have access to this so the trade continues. America is also a big importer of parts by the way.

It's kid of strange that both of you talk about enforcement in China, yet try to justify a crime in India Hmmmm!!

matt67

The middleman who engages in supplying the trade in tiger products is not only restricting himself to tigers. his is a business in all animal (and bird) felt. He is conducting a business. where there is a demand there is a supply. You could argue that he can try his business skills in some other ecologically friendly activity. He does not actually hunt the animals. he is a go between. the poachers are poor labourers, unemployed and take up this activity out of hardship.

After all remember, the decline of Tigers in India started about 200 years ago when the Maharajas and the colonial powers killed hundreds in one day during hunts. It is all very nice for them to now become conservationists.

Noodle

Didn't mean to justify this at all! I just meant to point out that I wouldn't blame those that do these crimes out of hardship, but those who create the demand and those who help it along or turn a blind eye. And they are not poor.

But okay, maybe I don't know enough about poachers. If they operate in gangs and have help from others, even officials ... that's again another story altogether.

PeakXV

If it is not enforced it is not banned. The word ban is becoming an all too loosely used term to appease/calm foreign governments with vested interests in the product de jour. Knock-off DVD,CD, & software trade is banned their(in China) too - but you can still pick up a your favourite pirated program in a jiffy.

Do you have a link to the stats on American importation of tiger parts Cyber? Big is a word that conjures up an unclear mental estimate. Is this a generalized importation or exclusively a black market job for the many Chinatowns?

__________________
We shall not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started ...and know the place for the first time.
T.S. Eliot

Don't go to India ~ Pre-trip Warnings & Misconceptions?

capt_mahajan

Yes, they are well organised gangs. They employ locals too, though. Recently the head of one such gang was arrested in Delhi.

cyberhippie

The article doesn't make a break down of where the parts end up peak could be like you say Chinatowns across the States, then again maybe not. I believe tiger skins are still popular amongst some folks with more money than brains!

I agree lack of enforcement knocks huge holes in the notion of banned but if you sniff around there have been some seizures by the Chinese authorities as well and traders now don't advertise their wares openly because of this. It seems to have been driven partially underground, which leads me to believe that pointing the finger at the Chinese government may be fruitless. They have at least implemented the law to the point traders are being smart and laying low! Again more could be done.
I also largely agree with others when they say the real fault lies with the big players, of course you could go further and say it lies with the people who buy these products!!

I think Matt67 has a kind of inescapable logic to his argument but it's not that black and white and offers a bleak future for tigers!

Anyway here's the snippet from

KILLED FOR A CURE: A Review of the Worldwide Trade in Tiger Bone

Which is a very interesting read!

Dr. Gajaprishthakara

Thanks for that Bird. It is very sad.

And every single person involved from the men who took the bribes, the man who pulled the trigger, the businessmen who took the cut, the governments that failed to act and the people who consume or wear it are culpable. They have made a choice and knew (or should have known) that it was wrong. As long as I can get what I can out of this, I don't care what anyone loses from it.

I think that arguments about mitigating circumstances (sick child, no food etc.) can wait until they are apprehended.

noflylist

Even the judge who will hand out punishment will get his cut, and that is the paradox

birds

The Chinese not responsible?? Give me a break!

Only this month China announced they want to legalise the sale of tiger parts again. And why? Because they can make money with it. They want to set up more tiger farms and extend the current market. Already they have about 5,000 captive-bred tigers and stockpiles of dead tigers which they need to get rid off. The Chinese authorities themselves admit that the market is worth about US$ 4 billion!!

So, now they try to claim it has affected traditional Chinese culture! Since when are the Chinese so concerned with their culture? For decades they suppressed it and they are still doing this when it suits them. Only the past few years they are interested in reviving some of their culture and you know why? Money, Money, Money! As more and more foreign tourists are coming to their country they find that they can make money out of culture, so they scramble trying to save whatever little is left and build fake where they do not have any. Of course, the whole tiger business has nothing to do with tourism but with a huge internal market.

Tiger skin in Tibet? Of course there may be some but saying there is such a huge demand among the Tibetans is overstating it grossly. Most Tibetans have been reduced to such poverty that they would not be even in a position to buy a tiger skin! Those who can are likely pawns of the Chinese. The Chinese plying this story in the West is just another way to try to justify the trade and, for good measure, blaming the Tibetans in the process. Those who buy this tale are not well informed or have ulterior motives, and many in the west do, including broadcasters and presenters who see a huge market in China.

The WWF’s position is that legalising the trade in China would provide an even better cover for traders and is likely to be the last nail in the coffin of the tiger in the wild.

Do I blame the Chinese? You bet I do!


Some sources: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...7/wtiger07.xml, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4272666.stm


By the way, the talk about poverty doesn’t cut it. Poverty in India will not be solved by killing a bunch of tigers. India’s poverty is caused by lots of other problems some for which the solutions are not in sight. For example, I worked for eight years on a project in the poorest of poor areas where tens of thousands are succumbing to cancers and bone deformities because they do not have access to clean water. Now we are talking poverty! Sure, you may want to give the individual an excuse but in the greater picture it is not relevant and, as CyberHippy pointed out, it are often not the poorest of the poor who are involved in this. But this can be a whole become a whole new thread in itself.


P.S.
I guess this is what Nick predicted would happen on an animal forum. I can not see any harm, though. Discussion leads to information exchange and only information can bring awareness.