Animals and Shelters

birds · Jul 25th, 2007, 22:47

Hi Noodle,

Just wanted to check how you are doing. Has the first irritation and anger past?

I have been thinking a lot about the situation but have not been able to come up with a solution.

When I told my cat friend she became raving mad. She has a bit of a temper

but a good heart.

Noodle · Jul 25th, 2007, 23:41

Hi birds! Thanks for asking. Normally my anger subsides within a day or two, strangely this time not. I'm really pissed off

and can't seem to get over it.

I also haven't come to any solution. Most of the donors would like to donate it to another shelter.

I feel strangely paralysed at the moment ...

I like your cat friend!

Say Hi to her from me!

camelgirl · Jul 25th, 2007, 23:44

I've just read this whole thread for the first time and I was as surprised as everyone with the sudden turn of events.

My "gut" tells me to move on with your collected funds to someone more reliable (the other places that were suggested). I think Lila's behavior is very worrisome and I would not continue a project with her because she seems erratic. I don't think it's moodiness. The Vet was being polite IMHO.

Here in the USA when someone keeps hundreds of dogs and cats in a house they are called "collectors" and eventually the dogs are rescued by the Humane Society. Collectors are animal lovers with a big heart who eventually get out-of-control and cannot care for the animals they take in. It's the saddest thing in the world because these animals have lives as bad as they would have out in the streets. They transfer diseases to each other and it's downhill from there.

From your early posts it sounds like Lila is a "collector" and despite her good heart and good intentions, I don't think she sounds reliable in her decision making at this point in time.

I'm not disparaging her intentions. She certainly means well. But if I were in your position, I would take my funds and find another venue.

I really admire you and your work with animals. Lila seemed very promising but now she seems like a distraction in your mission.

Noodle · Jul 25th, 2007, 23:53

Hi camelgirl, and thanks for your insight. You are not the first person who calls her a collector. But I have never quite understood the term - I mean, where precisely is the difference between any other animal shelter and a collector?

Animals that pass diseases to each other is the norm in many animal shelters in India. There is simply not enough money to build seperate kennels for those with diseases or to get the neccessary medication. I've seen this at other shelters too.

But if she's a collector or not, she certainly isn't managing the place well, and that's very very sad.

camelgirl · Jul 26th, 2007, 00:04

Noodle, I expect there is very little difference between a "collector" and an animal shelter in India. It's why she is admired there and would be in trouble in a western country.

Clearly, rescuing Lila's animals is impossible because there's nowhere to take them that would be much better.

But one definition of a collector is that she keeps all of them and never finds people good enough to adopt them out to and her priority is not relocating them to a better home. She'd rather keep all of them, hence a "collector."

I hope I don't sound arrogant or like Freud about Lila since I'm not there and am not helping any animals at all (except my own half-blind wonderful dog whom we rescued 12 years ago).

I've always said doing anything in India is a challenge and what you are doing is the biggest of all...looking after unwanted animals.

Noodle · Jul 26th, 2007, 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by camelgirl

Noodle, I expect there is very little difference between a "collector" and an animal shelter in India. It's why she is admired there and would be in trouble in a western country.

Clearly, rescuing Lila's animals is impossible because there's nowhere to take them that would be much better.

Correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by camelgirl

But one definition of a collector is that she keeps all of them and never finds people good enough to adopt them out to and her priority is not relocating them to a better home. She'd rather keep all of them, hence a collector."

Also true. She doesn't like to give animals away, rarely does it.

So, I guess, yes, she must be a collector then.

No, you don't sound arrogant. You seem to be able to see both sides and understand how it is in India.

birds · Jul 26th, 2007, 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by camelgirl

Clearly, rescuing Lila's animals is impossible because there's nowhere to take them that would be much better.

For a long term I also thought that there were no solutions for stray/unwanted animals but learned this is not true, at least not always.

Earlier I mentioned my cat friend and she manages, all by herself without outside funding, to house a couple of hundered animals every year. She has lots of theories, practical experience and even marketing strategies about this. She basically runs the operation as a business but instead of profit being the measure of success the number of animals she houses is. The more I learn about this the more I believe she is right.

It is a bit too late in the night right now to go into her world but with her succes rate there should be a way to spread her work but I have not figured out how yet. If anybody wants to take this further I would be happy to expand.

camelgirl · Jul 26th, 2007, 02:58

Birds, Your friend does have something excellent going and it would be good to be able to replicate her "business" design. Management style is as important as the love of animals to succeed. Ultimately, good will just isn't enough.

There is a no-kill animal sanctuary here in the US (Utah) called Best Friends-- Best Friends Animal Society Home Page which seems to have also found a way to help thousands of animals. I've been to visit it and wanted to move there just to be able to volunteer! (I didn't

) They even work with people outside of the US. Maybe they would be a good resource for Noodle to check out for some help or ideas.

Sama · Jul 27th, 2007, 00:21

camelgirl, have you heard of Kinky Friendman, mystery writer and ex-"country" singer? His Utopia Animal Rescue Ranch is another good example of animal compassion in action.

"They say when you die and go to heaven all the dogs and cats you've ever had in your life come running to meet you.

Until that day, rest in peace, Cuddles."

His story about his cat always makes me cry -- Cuddles was always in his books.

PeakXV · Jul 27th, 2007, 00:41

Space is the real issue in most of these cases. Those collector stories pop up in the newspaper here everynow & then:

"Elderly Lady discovered living with 101 cats .... in small apartment complex."

camelgirl · Jul 27th, 2007, 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by YogaGal

camelgirl, have you heard of Kinky Friendman, mystery writer and ex-"country" singer? His Utopia Animal Rescue Ranch is another good example of animal compassion in action.

Yes, I know him well. I was introduced to his music in 1975 and thought it was fantastic! Not as enthusiastic about his writing. Had no idea that he was another animal rescue person though. Too bad he didn't win his race for Governor of Texas!

birds · Jul 28th, 2007, 00:04

Hi CamelGirl, this Best Friends Animal Society sounds like a great organisation.

I wish there was something like this in India.

At the moment, most of India's dogs and cats are stray animals some which are lucky and found a home. There are still relatively few pedigree cats and dogs. Unfortunately many pedigree animals in India are bred under poor conditions.

Apparently in some states of America breeding is forbidden by law (unless you have a license) and all dog owners are encouraged to get their animals sterilised.

If only the Indian government would do something similar it could help to avoid lots of pedigree dogs ending up in animal shelters in the near future. But than again, the Indian government has lots of other things to take care of.

camelgirl · Jul 28th, 2007, 00:26

The USA has come a long way in the past 40 years. There was a time not that long ago when very few people got their pets neutered (sterilized) and people always seemed to have puppies & kittens to give away. Animals were almost always killed when picked up on the streets and brought to shelters. Fleas were common and there was just not that much information about how to take care of pets.

I don't know when that all changed but it did not happen quickly. I think the first thing that happened was requiring rabies shots, which is an obvious public health issue.

We still have plenty of problems here. Just this week a rich and famous athlete was arrested for breeding pit bulls for fighting. The police found hundreds of dead dogs buried on his property. washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines

And here's some more problems about breeding practices: Special Features: News

India is at the beginning of learning about the care and treatment of pets and that's good! But as you can see from these links, the world still has a long way to go!

birds · Jul 28th, 2007, 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by camelgirl

We still have plenty of problems here. Just this week a rich and famous athlete was arrested for breeding pit bulls for fighting. The police found hundreds of dead dogs buried on his property.

Apparently the creep was not just killing the losing dogs but doing so in the most cruel manners possible.

This morning I read the news that both Nike and Reebok have dropped selling stuff endorsed by this Vick guy.

. And are not going to pay him also

. Sign Up
That will hopefully help to set an example. I hope they will also put him away for a good amount of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by camelgirl

India is at the beginning of learning about the care and treatment of pets and that's good! But as you can see from these links, the world still has a long way to go!

I do not see any reason why India could not do a bit of frog leaping and evaluate what happened in other countries and prevent it from happening in India. They are doing it in other areas so why not with animal care. Puppy farms are not yet a wide spread phenomena in India but will be. The government could help to stop this by not allowing it.

There are various studies which show that a good part of the Indian stray population is created by unsterilised male 'owner' dogs mating with stray females. By making it a law that all owner dogs are to be sterilised (as is in the case in some (parts) of countries), the growth of the stray population can be curbed.

Of course enforcement would not be easy but if a law is in place it will give animal welfare organisations some 'teeths' and probably many owners will follow the law just to avoid trouble.

To me these seem easy measures which could have at least some effect and help to prevent some of the (future) animal problems.

Noodle · Jul 29th, 2007, 14:32

Hi all!

Just wanted to update the cat shelter story.

I have been mulling this over the whole week and am none the wiser really. Yesterday I tried to call Lila but nobody picked up. I then talked with my vet again in great detail and he knows two Parsis who are also animal lovers and have been friends with her for many years. He said he will call them and explain the situation to them and hopefully they will have a word with her. Let's see how that turns out.

Otherwise I don't know what to do. I have the strong feeling that if I talk to her again there won't be a satisfactory outcome. But if the Parsis don't want to talk to her or are not successful, I will try again.

I have also asking around for other shelters, and there is a 'Kitty Club' here somewhere, who have been taking care of cats for many years. My vet is getting the phone number for me.

There is also a Cat House, run by (I kid you not!) a German woman who I know from long ago! I was told she has around 100 cats (I don't know if she re-houses them or what exactly she does), and that the cats are roaming free on the premises which has a fence all around it. So possibly she doesn't need a cat enclosure at all.

Further there is Noah's Ark, which I was told about by a lady who has died in the meantime, so I can't ask her. I can't find their number anywhere.

And there is a woman I was told who 'takes care of cats'. I have no idea to what an extend and how large her premises are, but I could call her as well.

That's all from here!

Your discussion and links are very interesting, birds and camelgirl!

Jul 25th, 2007, 23:41	#77
Noodle Crazy for the furry ones Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Pune, India Posts: 1,026	Hi birds! Thanks for asking. Normally my anger subsides within a day or two, strangely this time not. I'm really pissed off and can't seem to get over it. I also haven't come to any solution. Most of the donors would like to donate it to another shelter. I feel strangely paralysed at the moment ... I like your cat friend! Say Hi to her from me! __________________ If in hole stop digging. Indian saying

Jul 27th, 2007, 00:21	#84
Sama a pain in the asana Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: the India inside my heart Posts: 5,543	camelgirl, have you heard of Kinky Friendman, mystery writer and ex-"country" singer? His Utopia Animal Rescue Ranch is another good example of animal compassion in action. "They say when you die and go to heaven all the dogs and cats you've ever had in your life come running to meet you. Until that day, rest in peace, Cuddles." His story about his cat always makes me cry -- Cuddles was always in his books. __________________ *My India, 2005-2008* sama: Pali/Sanskrit: that state of consciousness which reflects neither attachment nor aversion

Jul 27th, 2007, 00:41	#85
PeakXV Naan.tering Nabob Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Abode of Glooscap Posts: 4,512	Space is the real issue in most of these cases. Those collector stories pop up in the newspaper here everynow & then: "Elderly Lady discovered living with 101 cats .... in small apartment complex." __________________ What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lives within us. ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes Don't go to India ~ Pre-trip Warnings & Misconceptions?

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Jul 25th, 2007, 22:47	#76
birds Adopt a stray Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Goa Posts: 695	Hi Noodle, Just wanted to check how you are doing. Has the first irritation and anger past? I have been thinking a lot about the situation but have not been able to come up with a solution. When I told my cat friend she became raving mad. She has a bit of a temper but a good heart.

Jul 25th, 2007, 23:44	#78
camelgirl 10 year Visa okee dokee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Swannanoa NC usa Posts: 1,099	I've just read this whole thread for the first time and I was as surprised as everyone with the sudden turn of events. My "gut" tells me to move on with your collected funds to someone more reliable (the other places that were suggested). I think Lila's behavior is very worrisome and I would not continue a project with her because she seems erratic. I don't think it's moodiness. The Vet was being polite IMHO. Here in the USA when someone keeps hundreds of dogs and cats in a house they are called "collectors" and eventually the dogs are rescued by the Humane Society. Collectors are animal lovers with a big heart who eventually get out-of-control and cannot care for the animals they take in. It's the saddest thing in the world because these animals have lives as bad as they would have out in the streets. They transfer diseases to each other and it's downhill from there. From your early posts it sounds like Lila is a "collector" and despite her good heart and good intentions, I don't think she sounds reliable in her decision making at this point in time. I'm not disparaging her intentions. She certainly means well. But if I were in your position, I would take my funds and find another venue. I really admire you and your work with animals. Lila seemed very promising but now she seems like a distraction in your mission.

Jul 25th, 2007, 23:53	#79
Noodle Crazy for the furry ones Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Pune, India Posts: 1,026	Hi camelgirl, and thanks for your insight. You are not the first person who calls her a collector. But I have never quite understood the term - I mean, where precisely is the difference between any other animal shelter and a collector? Animals that pass diseases to each other is the norm in many animal shelters in India. There is simply not enough money to build seperate kennels for those with diseases or to get the neccessary medication. I've seen this at other shelters too. But if she's a collector or not, she certainly isn't managing the place well, and that's very very sad.

Jul 26th, 2007, 00:04	#80
camelgirl 10 year Visa okee dokee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Swannanoa NC usa Posts: 1,099	Noodle, I expect there is very little difference between a "collector" and an animal shelter in India. It's why she is admired there and would be in trouble in a western country. Clearly, rescuing Lila's animals is impossible because there's nowhere to take them that would be much better. But one definition of a collector is that she keeps all of them and never finds people good enough to adopt them out to and her priority is not relocating them to a better home. She'd rather keep all of them, hence a "collector." I hope I don't sound arrogant or like Freud about Lila since I'm not there and am not helping any animals at all (except my own half-blind wonderful dog whom we rescued 12 years ago). I've always said doing anything in India is a challenge and what you are doing is the biggest of all...looking after unwanted animals.

Jul 26th, 2007, 02:58	#83
camelgirl 10 year Visa okee dokee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Swannanoa NC usa Posts: 1,099	Birds, Your friend does have something excellent going and it would be good to be able to replicate her "business" design. Management style is as important as the love of animals to succeed. Ultimately, good will just isn't enough. There is a no-kill animal sanctuary here in the US (Utah) called Best Friends-- Best Friends Animal Society Home Page which seems to have also found a way to help thousands of animals. I've been to visit it and wanted to move there just to be able to volunteer! (I didn't ) They even work with people outside of the US. Maybe they would be a good resource for Noodle to check out for some help or ideas.

Jul 28th, 2007, 00:04	#87
birds Adopt a stray Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Goa Posts: 695	Hi CamelGirl, this Best Friends Animal Society sounds like a great organisation. I wish there was something like this in India. At the moment, most of India's dogs and cats are stray animals some which are lucky and found a home. There are still relatively few pedigree cats and dogs. Unfortunately many pedigree animals in India are bred under poor conditions. Apparently in some states of America breeding is forbidden by law (unless you have a license) and all dog owners are encouraged to get their animals sterilised. If only the Indian government would do something similar it could help to avoid lots of pedigree dogs ending up in animal shelters in the near future. But than again, the Indian government has lots of other things to take care of.

Jul 28th, 2007, 00:26	#88
camelgirl 10 year Visa okee dokee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Swannanoa NC usa Posts: 1,099	The USA has come a long way in the past 40 years. There was a time not that long ago when very few people got their pets neutered (sterilized) and people always seemed to have puppies & kittens to give away. Animals were almost always killed when picked up on the streets and brought to shelters. Fleas were common and there was just not that much information about how to take care of pets. I don't know when that all changed but it did not happen quickly. I think the first thing that happened was requiring rabies shots, which is an obvious public health issue. We still have plenty of problems here. Just this week a rich and famous athlete was arrested for breeding pit bulls for fighting. The police found hundreds of dead dogs buried on his property. washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines And here's some more problems about breeding practices: Special Features: News India is at the beginning of learning about the care and treatment of pets and that's good! But as you can see from these links, the world still has a long way to go!

Jul 29th, 2007, 14:32	#90
Noodle Crazy for the furry ones Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Pune, India Posts: 1,026	Hi all! Just wanted to update the cat shelter story. I have been mulling this over the whole week and am none the wiser really. Yesterday I tried to call Lila but nobody picked up. I then talked with my vet again in great detail and he knows two Parsis who are also animal lovers and have been friends with her for many years. He said he will call them and explain the situation to them and hopefully they will have a word with her. Let's see how that turns out. Otherwise I don't know what to do. I have the strong feeling that if I talk to her again there won't be a satisfactory outcome. But if the Parsis don't want to talk to her or are not successful, I will try again. I have also asking around for other shelters, and there is a 'Kitty Club' here somewhere, who have been taking care of cats for many years. My vet is getting the phone number for me. There is also a Cat House, run by (I kid you not!) a German woman who I know from long ago! I was told she has around 100 cats (I don't know if she re-houses them or what exactly she does), and that the cats are roaming free on the premises which has a fence all around it. So possibly she doesn't need a cat enclosure at all. Further there is Noah's Ark, which I was told about by a lady who has died in the meantime, so I can't ask her. I can't find their number anywhere. And there is a woman I was told who 'takes care of cats'. I have no idea to what an extend and how large her premises are, but I could call her as well. That's all from here! Your discussion and links are very interesting, birds and camelgirl!

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