Protests in Tibet

IVAN

So, what did you assume about my post, that you shouldn't have assumed if you read it with strict logic exclusively?

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capt_mahajan

This conversation just got too esoteric for me

soledad

Express India

Hello everyone!
I just thought to have the opinion of all you intelligent people out there,about what you think of the Indian government's stance at the recently organized Olympic torch rally in New Delhi ?

Do you,or don't you think,it was a complete surrender of the Indian government before China as it is clearly seen that the Communist giant is spreading it's influence in India's neighbourhood [it recently claimed an entire Indian state as their own],and perhaps the sole reason for all this has been to please China abroad and placate the CPI(M) at home ?

Don't you feel India must not remain a mute spectator to the destruction of Tibet's cultural and religious heritage, nor to the plight of its people as they are systematically reduced to a minority in Tibet itself ?

Please feel free and let the world know about what you think is right,and what not,by voicing your concern thoughts on this irrespective of who you are or where you are.[/font]

Nick-H

Soledad, that link doesn't work.

So far as voicing our opinions is concerned, whether or not directly related to India, that has been going on for the past 400+ posts!

In practical terms, whereas I'm disgusted by India sucking up to China, I wonder what you want to see: India go to war with China over this issue? India to support an armed uprising by Tibetans, which would amount to the same thing?

Again, we've been there already in this thread, and I don't think any of us want World War Three.

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Sama

that was just a matter of time....when I saw the Dalai Lama a vendor was selling t-shirts with the Dalai Lama's image and "Free Tibet"....I asked him if they were made in China. they weren't, thank goodness!

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machadinha

Oh, nothing all that mysterious. Just that I don't think a system like the Chinese can be described as national socialism, at all. Except maybe if one wants to note that it is both nationalistic and socialistic, but that's not what the word means. (Besides, what besets China today seems to me to have more to do with its increasing capitalism minus the democratic benefits this supposedly entails, let alone any notions of socialism.) And that I think the various systems we live under are still very much (and perhaps necessarily) ideologically motivated, even if we don't like to recognize it. (The free market is a belief system as much as it is anything else of course, no matter how much we might like to think it represents some higher natural order.) And that I'm not sure if the West is threatened by an inherent breakdown of some biological order (it might economically or ideologically though); all that anguish about the aging population for instance seems to me just another red herring to keep people's minds occupied and guide their actions. There's no reason as such why the economy would not be able to sustain this, provided one looks at the distribution of means. I mean people having fewer children is a direct result of their accumulated wealth and the way we have devised our economy and therefore much of our adult lives; so to sustain this, I guess that wealth needs to be evenly distributed to cover that aging population, simply put. It's not like our economy (or in much of Western Europe at least) is breaking down as a result of it, quite the contrary. The problem is we don't want to sustain all those improductive pensioners, as solidarity has gone out of fashion (and the thought of improductivity itself under this system evokes nothing but sheer horror of course). And out of a similar anguish we wish to keep our borders shut ever tighter, I mean it's kind of funny to read about the numbers refused or deported and the decreasing workforce at the same time, and some retrograde calls for us to bear more children (with its awkward ring in terms of national socialism, btw...).

(Or all in this guy's humble opinion of course.) So anyway I'm not sure if any mechanical social or economic order, bereft of ideology, can exist at all, even though people might like to think so. And perhaps this is ultimately the national socialist dream -- that of some all-powerful state that is somehow god-given, above all morality or critical scrutiny, and guided by some mysterious yet infallible inner processes, somehow unaffected by outside influences whether in space or time. Which is itself pure ideology of course -- and so far a miserably failed one. (As for that other notion of the end of history and therefore of ideology, even Fukuyama who came up with it has retracted or at least revised it by now I believe.)

(And all of this not to say that the West may not well find itself outplaced by other models in the not-so far future, it's entirely possible. Or perhaps it will co-exist with them, or some symbiosis may arise. Perhaps this is already and has been long happening, what with the steady advance of capitalist models in SE Asia, for instance. And perhaps the problem in China then is more one of a form of unbridled state capitalism, which perhaps could be argued to have a fascistic streak, after all. Although my feeling is the current Chinese model is more pragmatic than that, it probably has to be, if it is to survive.)

--> And anyway, back to Tibet I guess. Sorry for the interference. (And/but thanks for the inspiration to formulate these thoughts though, Ivan This isn't an attack, just reflection, misguided or otherwise.)

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machadinha

The Times of India: China jails 30 over Lhasa violence

International Herald Tribune: Tibetan exiles say at least 203 killed in China's crackdown on Tibet

IVAN

Fair enough machadinha, and even if I am tempted to continue our discussion, I realise that Indiamike may not be the place for it.

machadinha

You're right, Ivan.

Meanwhile, AP: Talks between Chinese, Dalai Lama officials set to begin

machadinha

Reuters: Chinese editor fired over Tibet commentaries

Meanwhile,

Monsters & Critics: China says Tibet talks "only a beginning," onus on Dalai Lama

Bloomberg: China Says No Date for More Talks With Tibet Envoys

AFP: Dalai Lama envoy says China talks 'good first step'

However, The Hindu has a slightly different take on prospective talks: China agrees to 2nd round of talks with envoys of the Dalai Lama

rajiveanand

Not barring the insidious propaganda of course...

Olympic flame lit at Everest peak

Wonder why nobody seems to be smiling!

R.

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rajiveanand

Reports smuggled out of Tibet can be found here.

R.

vistet

Jamyang Norbu posted this letter from Lhasa some time ago . At the end comes thjis memorable image :

"But even in this difficult time you still see brave and good action. Yesterday I saw a little boy, around one or two years old; that I believed displayed a good example of Tibetan spirit. The baby looked as if he had just learnt how to walk and was out with his grandmother and her little dog. They were standing in front of the Jokhang Square where soldiers in blue uniforms ensured that nobody crossed the square. The baby walked up the three steps to the square and started to make prostrations towards the Jokhang while his grandmother also prayed but her frail body prevented her from prostrating as well. When the boy finished he looked at the guards, then at his grandmother, and then started to walk closer to the temple. The guards looked at the baby, not knowing what to do. After about ten meters the baby boy stopped and prostrated again, then turned around, walked back to one of the guards and took his hand to say goodbye."

Something else noteworthy : Ang Dawa Sherpa ( no , not the head Sherpa from the Hillary-Tenzing ascent ) has come out to publicly support the Tibetan cause :

"Today we have seen and heard about the situation in Tibet. I cannot say whether people who voluntarily pretend not to see and hear are being bribed/ paid or not. But if they blindly choose to jump down the cliff in full sense, I have nothing to say.

We all must know very clearly that the Tibetan Government in Exile is not demanding independence. They are not demanding the boycott of Olympics. Clearly, they are demanding equal rights as a nationality, freedom of religion, freedom of religion, preservation of old monasteries and building new monasteries, freedom to join monasteries for the spread of Buddhism. In short, what our Buddhist brothers and sisters are demanding are freedom of religion and culture. We have seen how in Lhasa they are brutally suppressed for demanding these basic human rights."

What makes this statement extra interesting is that Ang Dawa is an elected representative ... of the Maoist Party in Nepal.

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vistet

First Jordanian climber on Everest also became the first to unfurl the Tibetan flag there , a flag that was given to him by a Tibetan in Namche.


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dzibead

But now for some bad news:
NYTimes headline: "Beijing Suspends Licenses of 2 Lawyers Who Offered to Defend Tibetans in Court"
read more here:http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/04/wo...&or ef=slogin