Protests in Tibet

karuna

Hmm, interesting. Perhaps I just move in circles where it's more common- kind of middle class-ish liberal-ish circles. You know, vegetarians.

The Kosovans and Eritreans* and <insert independence seeking peoples here> didn't have Richard Gere or what's her name the blonde actress, thingy's mother. Burma and South Africa (under apartheid) have/had similar supporters. They are more of a cause celebre than other fights, I think.



*granted we're talking violent campaigns here, sometimes viciously so, but the Tibetan campaign has not been blood-free

Sama

totally agree with Shiver...the Chinese occupation of Tibet has gone on for 50 some years and where has been the outcry?

during one of the US Democratic candidates' debate, China's influence in Sudan was mentioned and the candidates gave about 30seconds lip service to boycotting the Olympics. the next day I wrote my congressmen saying while Sudan is important, what about Tibet? I have already posted the response I received from Obama, but from my other senator (who is considered to be one of the most liberal in Congress) I keep getting letters about how he is keeping tabs on the situation in Darfur!

say what?!?

unless the Dalai Lama comes to the US, Tibet is not really on the radar screen. and believe it or not, I have met some people who don't know where Tibet is and have no idea who the Dalai Lama is.

__________________
My India, 2005-2008
sama: Pali/Sanskrit: that state of consciousness which reflects neither attachment nor aversion

edwardseco

Actually Dilli, if you recall from the early 60's there was just such a flurry on the border, Manchuria? The rest I largely agree with (and very much enjoyed reading). Its preching to the choir about the military history. But, it doesn't matter. If China has the power much of the paper justifications from the Indian side become meaningless, the hijira's dance. Wisely, the Indian government has now seen its broader self interest. China's neighbors are engaged in exactly such a readjustment in their thinking due to real politic. That they don't enjoy it is beside the point as is the public opinion of the great unwashed masses. In fact, one could argue it was the unsophisticated public opinion that got India into the disaterous Sino-Indian war. I agree on the vile role of the politicians (Patel is now being re-evaluated in history much higher). Good post, shukriya..

Munivar

The Tibetan govt-in-exile is a largely democratic setup with a democratic charter explicitly spelled out. I see no reason why they would return to a theocratic-feudalistic society they were when China invaded. Besides, having lived in a democratic India should have some positive influence and then there is the possibility that many feudals might have been either killed/dispossessed...

__________________
Yaadhum Oore Yaavarum Kaelir !!!

dzibead

(cross-posted with Munivar)
It would probably look at least something like the Tibetan-Government-in-Exile ("TGIE"), which is generally described on Central Tibetan Administration's website: http://www.tibet.net/

The TGIE is set up as a democracy, but it's a imperfect one and not entirely free from a theocratic bent, as monastic influence is still very substantial - monks' votes are weighted more heavily than lay votes - and quite honestly, from what I've seen of Tibetans in exile in the West, they don't pay a lot of attention to the politics of the TGIE in India.

I also suspect that quite a few people who are big shots in the TGIE might think that if Tibet were suddenly to regain independence, they would just waltz into position of power back in the "homeland," but based on discussions with a lot of Tibetans I know who are actually from Tibet, I think they'd be in for a rude awakening. There are a lot of Tibetans still in their native land who have at least some local government experience, and certainly activist bona fides, who have obviously had no opportunity to play a role in the TGIE, and they'd certainly want (and deserve) a place at the table.

Ultimately, I think Tibet would operate as a democracy but there would be lots of factionalism and in-fighting along the way. The reality of politics in the TGIE is that there's much more bickering, back-biting and fragmentation than one might suppose from the superficially unified front that Tibetans often present to the outside world, particularly to their Western supporters. Khampas gripe about U-Tsangs, and U-Tsangs gripe about Khampas, and some people still harbor resentment towards the remnants of the aristocratic families (who still wield disproportionate influence in the TGIE and related institutions). But it wouldn't be a return to the old form of government and it would be a heck of a lot better than what they're inflicted with now.

Sama

so kind of like American politics.

anyway...if anyone is interested you can listen to some excerpts (MP3s) from a talk by my teacher Gelek Rimpoche on....

- Karma & Tibetan Uprising, Part 1
- Tibetan Uprising, Part 2
- The Collective Karma of The Tibetan People

at the Jewel Heart website (they are in the middle of the page.)

Dilliwala

Apart from which, the TGIE, being trained by our bureaucrats, are just as bureaucratic, if not more.

karuna, the DL is on record as saying "there's no going back to the old ways".

dzibead is right about the factionalism though. As unfortunate as this is, after all Tibet is in Asia.
I never believed it was so bad until I read some of the comments on phayul. My take on the TGIE's infighting is that they don't really have a lot to do, on account of not being in a position to do much. Then again, that wudn't explain why it happens in the GOI.

Agreed, but they haven't tried anything with Russia since, that was my point.

Hijra's dance? Ouch!
Like the term though, very evocative.
I frankly still don't agree that GOI is seeing its BROADER self-interest. There are many ways to keep China on its toes without starting another war. Interesting discussion on CNBC last night by a national security expert, a former foreign secy and a Tibetan official. The first two (Brahma Chellaney and Kanwal Sibal) made some good points to that effect.

At least '62 did give a wake up call in respect of the military overhaul. What I read about Sumdorong Chu was seriously impressive, considering that there were even a few years ago no roads all the way to the border-points, and AFAIK only a few now.
And rather than India, I believe it's China that sobered thereafter, u'll be aware of the 1993 agreement for settlement of border issues thru dialogue.

But I agree with you, nothing much is going to change. Not until China becomes a democracy, that is.
I'm not holding my breath on that one.

dzibead

Yeah, that's an eye-opener, isnt' it?

Yep, a lot of pencil pushers and paper shufflers there. Doesn't stop them from being self-important, though. I get the impression that a lot of jobs in the TGIE are sinecures and that most people with real ambition and/or talent get the hell out, one way or another, as soon as they can.

capt_mahajan

Precisely.

Unfortunately, the noise worldwide about Tibet today is just static.

Dilliwala

Ah well, someone's got to keep up the good fight.

Frankly, it's not even as if Tibetans aren't ready to fight it out on the ground. These are not cowards - Khampa warriors didn't have a reputation for nothing. Ref my previous posts re Chushi Gangdruk, it was chock-a-block with Khampas.
Most of the present passivity(?) is due to the DL's own Gandhivad. I don't have a lot of contacts in the Tibetan community, but from what little I know the TYC has been stirring for a punch-up for many years now, and only don't out of respect for HH. There've even been unkind suggestions that they are simply waiting for him to, umm, re-reincarnate.
The younger generation, though still respectful of the DL, are increasingly in disagreement with his policy of ahinsa. Having been born and grown up in India, they are not very different from their desi counterparts - unwilling to accept everything their parents tell them as gospel. Of course, nobody is under any illusion, not the TYC themselves, that MANY Tibetans will die in an armed struggle.
And it's not as if I don't understand DL's compulsions - he is after all trying to prevent a bloodbath, of proportions that wud have made ole Adolf proud. Unenviably he is between the proverbial red Devil and the deep yellow sea.

Well, took South Africa half a century to be free too. Many blacks had to die there as well. As harsh and awful as this sounds, if Tibetans die in larger numbers at the hands of the PLA, then the world will sit up and take notice. Maybe.

Of course the PLA being what it is, they can make Sharpeville look like a Sunday stroll in the park in comparison.

So, EXACTLY like the GOI then?

capt_mahajan

The International Herald Tribune

Full story HERE

Captain_Neel

Are those "some people" Americans?

dzibead

Anyone who is interested in the Khampa resistance pre-dating the formation of Chushi Gangdruk should read Warriors of Tibet: The Story of Aten and the Khampas' Fight for the Freedom of Their Country, a very moving book:
http://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Tibet...6555687&sr=8-3

Spot on, as always, DW. The DL's policy of non-violence really has much more to do with his having been impressed by, and having absorbed, Gandhian ahimsa, than it has to do with any native Tibetan culture or tradition. Tibetans historically were not particularly non-violent people, despite the current PR which implies that they've had a uniquely non-violent culture for eons, largely attributable their Buddhism -- notwithstanding the fact that Tibet hasn't actually been Buddhist for all that long, in the big scheme of things. This issue is addressed in Imaging Tibet: Perceptions, Projections, and Fantasies, a collection of really interesting essays edited by Thierry Dodin and Heinz Rathe:
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...ekz0G-KcAAX5Co
I find it interesting that the supposed non-violence of Tibetan culture is often attributed to their ascribing to Buddhist principles of compassion and not harming any sentient beings, even though no one seems to consider other predominantly Buddhist countries/cultures to be particularly non-violent in reality, regardless of whatever principles their religion says they should adhere to. In my experience, and I know a lot of Tibetans, the average Tibetan is just like everybody else ... not particularly "shanthi" in other words. Heck, Christianity includes all kinds of "turn the other cheek" / "love your neighbor" stuff, too, but nobody thinks that means that actual, real life Christians are any more likely to be loving and forgiving than anybody else. No, the non-violence thing is largely a construct (to some extent a political construct) of the current DL.

Not just the Tibetan semi-desis or others who grew up elsewhere in exile - plenty of "home grown" Tibetans are feeling the same way, maybe even more strongly because they live with the repression day in and day out. The lid may be on in Lhasa for the time being, but the outlying areas are going to be very hard to control, notwithstanding China's military resources. I can certainly understand where the DL is coming from, in wanting to avoid slaughter, but, really, if it looks as if people aren't willing to fight and die (and kill) to save their own culture and independence, I don't know why they expect the West or India to do anything more to support their cause other than the "feel good" stuff that's already being done, like giving the DL Congressional Gold Medals and the Nobel Peace Prize.

And Ireland 400 years - and no one thought they could do it, given that Britain was a major world power at the time, with superior military and naval power, and was sitting on Ireland's doorstep, so to speak. I think the comparison with Ireland is apt, too -- consider typical Tibetans: good sense of humor and wit; love a good party, like to drink, sing and dance, and certainly get into fights (forget the 'shanthi' B.S.); are crazy about horses; are religious to the point of seeming to be "priest ridden" ... heck, the Tibetans are the Irish of Central Asia!

ind_pal

Agree with most of the very knowledgable people on this thread. Dilliwala et al.

What a sad state of affairs. China is like a monster gone out of control and gaining strength. Most of its people have been brainwashed. Appeasement is not going to work here either. Its leaders are cowards who have no choice but to continue with their policies or face the wrath of the people.

In the long term, best that the world can do is to unite and hopefully minimise the damage when China implodes or explodes.

Sama

if one listens to the excerpts from Gelek Rimpoche's talk about karma and the Tibetans (that I posted about), he talks exactly about what dzibead said -- that Tibetans were not historically non-violent and how over the centuries the monasteries were attacked many times - by Tibetans. he tells a funny story about how some wanted to attack a monastary with a howitzer canon but no one could figure out how to put it together....

if one knows any stories about how the young monks were treated in "good old Tibet" as Rimpoche likes to call Tibet, one would not buy into the ahimsa PR....the stories that Rimpoche tells about his training as a very young incarnate lama would curl your hair. nowadays the training would be called "child abuse."