Protests in Tibet

nedhopkins

Throughout her public career, and most especially as a Member of Congress, Pelosi has condemned the leaders of the Chinese Communist Party/Government as murderers and slavers. She's urged boycotts and punitive tariffs.

She's also condemned George W Bush as a war criminal.

That she doesn't have the votes to punish the Chinese Communists for their unending atrocities, or to impeach Bush for his war crimes, does not mean she is nothing but "hot air."

Her words and deeds have informed many Americans about the Chinese Communists' genocide in Tibet and their brutality throughout China; and her condemnation of Bush's unjust war has contributed to the growing opposition to that war among the American public (it's now almost at 70 percent disapproval).

Sama

apparently you don't read the same lefty blogs that I do. I think "Ice Queen" was one of the more polite terms for her, especially when she declared that "impeachment is off the table."

but this thread is not about defending Pelosi or castigating any other american politicians, and frankly, I'm sorry for mentioning her or Bush in the first place.

let's stick to tibet.

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Minnesota

I think this analysis -- which is very much the popular sense right now, I grant you -- overestimates the problems with the US economy while underestimating those of China.

China has lots of its own problems that it's happy to keep quiet, including more unsecured and under-secured loans than caused the current problems in the US. You rarely read about this in the press because the Chinese don't like it to be reported. But sometimes it sneaks out. For example, Ernst&Young consultants wrote a report that said just this, then they retracted it. The real problem, of course, was making the report public without changing the figures to match the Chinese government's "facts."

You can read about this online, e.g., at http://www.chinalyst.net/node/12823

If you keep your eye out, you will find articles similar to this one and the one I linked to above. But these stories aren't in keeping with the current "China craze" and so they tend to not get too much exposure.

This is only one aspect of the problems with China's economy. The total control of information within China make it certain their are many more. And when all this stuff comes out in the wash, it is going to bring a crash at least rivaling the Asian market troubles of the 1990s, and I don't think China is going to come out it even as well as Japan did back then, and they still have problem 10 year later.

The exchange rate controls you mention serve to make the value of the RMB (yuan 元) artificially low in order to keep down the international prices on Chinese made products. This is another factor to promote their export based economy. It just reflects that the Chinese government knows they need to export products to continue their expansion.

I still think there is a possibility for meaningful pressure, if the EU and/or US was/were willing to make it happen. We should push for this.

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capt_mahajan

Hmm, yes. Good point.

Though I don't understand the economics of it too well, I can well agree that the Chinese figures are fudged and understated- and that they may well need the US as much as the US needs them.

And the prospect of a possible Chinese crash are alarming, specially if it happens before the world recovers from the present US one- but that's for another thread.

dzibead

Yes, yes, yes! Thank you for highlighting all this. China's economy is balanced on a far slenderer reed than most people seem to realize. Move away from Beijing, Shanghai and the glittering developments on the southeastern coast and a lot of the country seems more like it's heading into the 19th century than the 21st.

A recent poll on attitudes toward China in various countries, in the wake to the Tibetan protests:
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...457&nid=& id=

Dilliwala

That the Chinese fudge has been no secret even here for the last 2-3 years, at least not to anyone who has cared to follow the story a bit.
The great irony is that some of the staunchest supporters and admirers here of the Chinese miracle are avowed non-Communists. Only prob is they can't explain how to follow it without installing the Chinese system first.
The Commies did try though and....well, Nandigram is one year old this March.......

Ed,
That there is a dispute about the Mcmahon Line is old hat. Without getting into the legality of it, if one perceives a certain international border for oneself and keeps to it, or moves troops forward as u say, I don't consider that as an automatic confrontation. That the Chinese won't like it (and didn't) is another matter. I'll just point out that even by your version our troops moved to the perceived line and not across it.

That the Mcmahon Line is good in law, as things stand between the ROI and the PRC, and that the Chinese are in violation of the agreement (1950?) is another matter, but maybe another thread.......

rand0M aXiS

Radio Free Asia has some good first hand accounts about what is going on. It is pretty grim.

What witnesses are saying

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edwardseco

A single word makes a difference. "Their" meaning the Indian interpretation not the Chinese interpretation. The Indian interpretation was lovingly based on colonial regimes which a newly Communist nation was unlikely to honor! My point in all this dusty history is that undue confrontation when one is relatively weak militarily was and is a bad idea. I sure don't want more "Indian" territory to fall to the Chinese. They have been surprisingly blunt in expressing territorial claims to the NE. So on balance, the Indian government has learned from history and behaved soberly in this case. The US learned its lesson in a very similar fashion in the War of 1812. Its also something all the countries around China are having to do..

Dilliwala

At the risk of taking this thread OT, I have to say thanks for starting this theme, becos I did some more research, and it's clear that there is a lot more legitimacy to the Indian govt's stand than we ourselves give it credit for.
Loving or unloving is irrelevant, what is is what the claims are based on. Before I expand, I think we can agree that for the most part the problem is due to the extremely difficult terrain under consideration. And if for 270 years (1684 to 1954) there is no dispute over a mutually agreed border (Ladakh/Tibet), I think it's not unreasonable for at least one successor state (Republic of India) to consider the matter done and dusted.

1. The GOI has in principle followed international conventions when arguing its case on the methods of boundary delimitation. The Chinese disagreed on practically all of them, altho I concede that in a few cases they have logical counter-arguments.
2. It is incorrect that the newly Communist nation was unlikely to honour past agreements or positions, in fact all their present claims are supported by (dubious) records and claims made at different times in the past, i.e pre-Communist times. The only agreement they've reneged on is the 1914 one between the Nationalist govt and Britain, i.e. Simla Conference.
3. Their border disputes with Myanmar were also settled mostly on the basis of positions existing in the 19th century, including some made with Myanmar's colonial ruler, Britain. The PRC accepted the pre-existing position.
4. "If u tell a lie a hundred times, it becomes the truth" - the PRC has done a damn good job of bashing India over the decades as the culprit, but it's now clear to me that they have been raising border disputes with everyone possible, based on old claims - we know of India and Myanmar, with Pakistan they have settled a dispute over a dispute , i.e. Shaksgam valley of POK; but did anyone know that they have an outstanding dispute with USSR/Russia too? Not settled militarily, for some strange reason.
Is it possible that it's China that is one bad neighbour to everybody, rather than all their neighbours being bad?
In conjunction with my sentence above, I absolutely reject the might-is-right principle as a legitimate method for settling border disputes or sovereignty issues. Wud it be ok for us to invent a border dispute with Bhutan based on highly specious and dubious claims, and go in? Many of the PRC's present claims are specious, e.g. a village with a very Indian name (going back centuries) of Barahoti, north of Badrinath/Mana and south of Niti La (which was the mutually recognised border for - oh u tell me!) suddenly gets the name of Wu-je when the PRC comes into existence?? Not even the Nationalists tried that one!
There is another aspect here - for centuries nobody really cared exactly where the border was, so long as they had a rough idea, no man's lands were quite common i.e. if there were say 20 miles (or more) between 2 villages on either side of the border and nothing but high mountain walls, stones and bare earth with not a blade of grass for livestock, and the certainty of death-by-cold if spending a night at the true-zero-line, then nobody gave a damn where said true-zero-line was (or wud have been) - if u were in Musapani or Ghastoli u were in India, and if u wanted to go across you made damn sure that u got to Tsaparang or Tholing if u wanted a meal and a warm bed, by when you were well inside Tibet. The concept of physical demarcation is, with exceptions, relatively new, i.e. boundary markers, border checkposts, etc.
Yes, they have. Ironically Arunachal only gathered steam in the 80s.
And we lost 1962 becos of the pols, not the military. If your own defence minister is a bloody commie sympathiser and the PM hands over the whole China policy to him, disaster is what u can expect and disaster is what u get. In the Alaknanda valley the road ended at Joshimath. In the Bhagirathi valley the road ended at Uttarkashi. No heavy lift helis in those days, so how do you get troops to Barahoti or Jadhang? None of this wud have happened had Patel been around.
Re learning from history and acting soberly, I have two words - Sumdorong Chu, 1987. Yes, we learnt - how to stand up to the ba....ds. Western govts reported that a 62-like situation existed and any moment war wud start - the troops were literally eye-ball to eye-ball, Deng had in fact said that "we will teach India a lesson"; thank goodness for Gen. Sundarji who refused to stand down and had the b.lls to tell Rajiv Gandhi "if u think you are being wrongly advised, you may make alternate arrangements". Of course RG didn't have the guts to sack him, and after three months the Chinese stood down. Yes, sober action has been the order of the day ever since - from China though. They no longer think in terms of a military takeover, encroachments notwithstanding. And 1987 went a long way in restoring at least our military's pride, so as a citizen I will always be grateful to Sundarji. Ah, they don't make em like him anymore - that man deserves a Bharat Ratna posthumously.
And re the nations around China acting soberly - the Chinese still don't dare to take the Russians on, they have got not an inch that they claim, and the Russians don't give a damn about the Chinese claim. China is very sober in this case.

A great link - gives what exactly the GOI was telling PRC in 1960 itself. An eye-opener for me. As a layman, I am unable to find fault with my govt.
http://www.mssu.edu/projectsouthasia.../border018.htm

A very interesting read. Worth reading the following 10 pages too. Even though it's written by a Chinese from their perspective, still betrays Chinese double standards, specially re estoppel.
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=O...lEaKFpTXn3QlM0

And here's something written by a long-time resident and friend of India
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0604/245.html

Sumdorong Chu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Sino-Indian_skirmish
http://www.indiatodaygroup.com/itoda...1999/obit.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITO...natarajan.html

Munivar

CCP is insane. One would expect some more finesse from a claimant to old civilization and emerging world power...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3607668.ece
China has accused Tibet’s exiled god-king of colluding with Muslim terrorists to destabilise the country before the Olympic Games

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Pradeep Nayak

I am shocked to know that Our Vice president refused to meet Dalai Lama due to Chinese pressure - a meeting scheduled months before. Its a shame to India and Indians. I didn't know the Indian government is in such a hopeless condition...

Sama

The Students for a Free Tibet website has current information about the Tibet protests and instructions on how to take action. Here is a list of action you can take via the website:

IOC: Speak Up About the Tibet Crisis
Take Action: Tell your Congressional Representative to Support Tibet
Tell the Indian Government to Release the Tibetan Marchers
China: Allow Journalists Access to Tibet
Support the Protests in Tibet

This is the beginning of a letter you can send to the IOC via the SFT website about not having the Olympic torch pass through Tibet:

"I am outraged that the International Olympic Committee has remained silent while hundreds of Tibetans across Tibet are intimidated, imprisoned, beaten and killed by Chinese forces.

Tibetans have suffered greatly for almost six decades under Chinese rule and are now risking everything to speak out. Despite the growing unrest in Tibet, the Beijing Olympics organizers are moving ahead with preparations to carry the Olympic torch through Tibet and to the top of Mount Everest..."

you can read the entire letter on their website.

dzibead

Here's an interesting poll on the attitudes in various countries toward the situation in Tibet. The Tibetan position has significantly less support in India than elsewhere, according to this poll, although the level of support for Tibet vs. China varies considerably by region within India.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...457&nid=& id=

karuna

Probably one for Yogagal because it's your area of expertise:

Not supporting the Chinese occupation of Tibet in any way, but what kind of society would the newly free Tibet look like? The Dalai Lama seems a progressive type, and I've read he's in favour of a Tibetan democracy- is there a blueprint for the New Tibet somewhere?

I'm not terribly keen on supporting a return to theocracy, I can't (offhand) name a society where this has been A Good Thing, and I don't much like the idea of supporting a return to a ruling class and underclass system. I'm sure this isn't the plan, but I don't know if anything concrete has ever been said about it and would like to know.

I also wonder, incidentally, why this particular fight for independence holds our attention so much, over others in the world? Some say it's the "Shangri-La" effect- idealizing Tibet and Tibetans. That sounds simplistic to me...just wondered what other people think?

Shiver me Timbers

Actually, I feel that the Tibet situation largely goes unnoticed and un-reported in comparison with other comparable conflicts around the world.

Yes we all sit up and notice every decade or so when the Tibetans reach breaking point and things boil over, but in the meantime, the cultural genocide rolls on with barely a whimper, as the world focuses on various other, less worthy (IMO) 'injustices'.

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