Pakistan

Betsy Lotze · Jun 2nd, 2004, 08:29

Well, we're going to try it. We haven't been since '92, but hubby was born in Pak (American parents were working there) and wants to take our kids to see some places. A friend who just got back (and has 3 young kids) assures us that it won't be a problem (but we will be staying with friends, and not advertizing our arrival). Our biggest concern is returning to India afterward...will anyone harrass an American born in Pak who is returning to India? We're leaving in 6 days...we'll let you know!

bijapuri · Jun 2nd, 2004, 14:28

This is from the newsgroup soc.history.ancient
and is a footnote to a lengthy account of archaeological sites in Pakistan. Sadly, it substantiates my gut feeling about what has been happening there

--------
18: Final note
For non-Muslim westerners, travel in Pakistan involves some minor
problems. I am not talking about the heat or the dangerous traffic
-obstacles that can be overcome- or the hotels (which are excellent).
But it appears that there is really something changing in the Sunna
attitude towards westerners. At Rothas, people threw stones towards our
jeep, although they stopped when I stepped out of the car. In one of the
mosques at Uch, people spat at us. Worst of all, in Peshawar, I was
denied access to a mosque, a kind of unhospitality that I have never
experienced before in an islamic country and found shocking. Even in the
holy city of the Iranian Shi'a, Qom, I was courteously allowed to visit
the tomb of Fatima and could talk to an ayatollah.
Yet, I do not want to end this message with this negative note, and add
that I have met many friendly and kind people, and I hope I will one day
be able to return to Pakistan.

Jona

--
Jona Lendering
http://www.livius.org

volga_volga · Jun 2nd, 2004, 23:28

at first, i hesitated to post the link here because this site is quite subjective although is full of facts also... take it with a grain of salt. not very often i come across a site that gives a summary of the world's dangerous places with explanation why they are considered so.

anyways, here is the scoop on Pakistan.

bear in mind, though, that is has not been updated for some time, as the author is said to be kept hostage in Colombia (I saw it on CNN I think) - is that the reason the Colombia link is not working, I wonder?

bongdongs · Jun 3rd, 2004, 02:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Betsy Lotze
Our biggest concern is returning to India afterward...will anyone harrass an American born in Pak who is returning to India? We're leaving in 6 days...we'll let you know!

As long as you dont carry a Pakistani passport I dont see any issues.

ace · Jun 14th, 2004, 03:26

has anyone had any experiences with any tours in pakistan?

volga_volga · Jul 9th, 2004, 00:00

I'm still waiting for my amazon-ordered second-hand (nothing in trade except for LP!) travel guide but i am impatient to start planning!

i have three weeks for Pakistan in September. I have never been to Pak before. I am no into serious trekking or mounteneering, but day treks are OK as long as i end up in a bed with a hot water shower or a bucket at the end of the day. I am travelling alone (and would like to keep it this way

ie i won't be wasting days away in travellers' hotels looking for travel partners to hook up with). I'm landing in Islamabad. Travel mainly by bus.

so, having all that in mind, what about:

Islamabad - Lahore - Islamabad with 2-3 days in Lahore

Islamabad - Peshawar - Islamabad with 2-3 days in Peshawar (and more if i feel i can manage!) will certainly go up to the Khyber Pass for a day but won't cross into Afganistan YET

Islamabad - Muzaffarabad - Islamabad ? with 2-3 days in Muzaffarabad and exploring POK and the terrorist training camps (using the map supplied by the Indian government

)

then i am not sure.

I want to take the Islamabad - Skardu flight, which has "most scenic" views over Himalayas... God willing

as it is very much dependent on the weather conditions.

i would like to spend the rest of the trip in the Northen Areas, but I don't know where exactly, i guess i'll leave it to when i get there... what do you think? how long does the bus journey up the KKH take, between Islamabad and Khunjerab Pass?

any comments will be appreciated!!

v-v

Challo Pakistan!!!!!!

bijapuri · Jul 9th, 2004, 00:05

oh, c'mon, V-V, take a run up K2! Double dare ya

volga_volga · Jul 9th, 2004, 20:01

nay, i won't leave the question to the oblivion that quickly... BUMP!

maree · Jul 9th, 2004, 22:30

Islamabad to Gilgit by bus was about 17 hours oR MAYBE 19)Gilgit as far as Passu was probably 4-5 hours and that's as far as I went.

Dakota · Jul 14th, 2004, 18:23

Hi,
I finally got my flight confirmed. Now, it´s the safety issue that´s in the air.
I am female traveler who always travels solo.
My orignal plan was to go from Islamabad --> Gilgit --> Kasghar --> Passu --> Gilgit --> Naltar Valley --> either back to Islamabad, or over to Chitral, Peshawar.
Since the recent trouble reports about robberies and attacks I am a bit weary about the whole travel. I would love to see Pakistan, and Kashgar, but don´t think it´s worth getting killed in the process.
All advise and suggestions much appreciated
Happy travels!

volga_volga · Jul 14th, 2004, 20:18

what kind of trouble reports, Dakota? (i must start watching news)

btw do you need malaria medication for Northern Pakistan?

beach · Jul 14th, 2004, 20:58

From Lahore you can go the Wagah entry port to India. And you too can witness that ‘gate closing’ melodrama. Yes, this time you have to clap for the Pakistani rangers performance than the BSF people on this side. Watch their faces closely

, you can see the whole of indo-pak problem on the face. Urmila went there recently to give a copy of her latest movie (indo pak theme) to the rangers.

It is the point of love-hate in the two nations relations.

volga_volga · Jul 14th, 2004, 21:11

beach, i will certainly go to Wagah to watch the border closing as i heard conflicting opinions on the atmosphere during the ceremony (and after!). my Indian colleague went to watch the India-Pak match and came back with very good memories from the Wagah ceremony. i found this quote in the LP site:

Quote:

Perhaps one of the best things I saw on my trip was the heavily ritualised closing of the border gates at Wagah. On each side of the border by the infamous gates, Pakistan and India compete with each other through decorative gardens and stadiums for spectators to watch the daily ritual. Tacky music is blared out with propagandist lyrics like "don't forget you're Pakistani, you'll always be a Pakistani". Then at about half past four a group of bearded, six foot five soldiers dressed in tehir black uniform assemble about thirty metres away from the gate. On the other side of the border the khaki dressed Indian soldiers are doing the same. Then in a completely symmetrical fashion, one of the guards from each side marches aggressively towards the gates and stands sideways facing his counterpart on the respective sides of the border line. They hold out their hands as if to shake then almost immediately pull them away again. For about half an hour the synchronised display is carried out with the soldiers from each side trying to out do each other in aggressiveness and masculinity. They show their hatred for each other's countries in every way possible from turning their heads away in disgust to flicking each other with the ends of the flag rope. Meanwhile the crowds on both sides applaud their guards and shout out slogans like, on the Pakistani side, "Pakistan live forever!" and "Allah is the greatest!" in Urdu. Finally the gates on both sides are slammed shut to emphasise the closing of the border until tomorrow.
After such a ferocious display of nationalism everyone is allowed up to the gates which are only a couple of metres apart. Indians and Pakistanis wave and take photographs of each other, make the peace sign and exchange courtesies. The Indian guards crack a joke with the Pakistani guards and pass over some samosas or a box of sweets. A little further along everyone is allowed up to a point of the border where there's no fence. Much to everyone's pleasure, one little boy managed to slip his hand through the line of guards and shake an Indian's hand on the other side. Although the event is treated with much amusement and joviality on both sides there was also an underlying sadness to see the people of the Punjab torn apart.
Martin Punaks, UK (Feb 01)

Dakota, u not going to Lahore?..

Betsy Lotze · Jul 16th, 2004, 03:46

Warning about Wagah border...we went on a Sunday night about 3 weeks ago. It was so crowded (over an hour before the ceremony started) that we couldn't see anything. (My kids still refer to the so-crowded-together-you-can't-get-a breath conditions as "Indian personal space."

)

It was fun anyway, and the atmosphere was more like a football game than anything else...it gave us hope for the future of the two countries...but I would definitely NOT go back on a weekend!

And, unfortunately we were unable to go into Pakistan this trip--not enough time or money--but the kids did get to see "a bit" of the country their dad grew up in.

Dakota · Jul 18th, 2004, 21:31

Hi,
Sorry for this late reply. Trouble reported about a bus being stopped at gun point on the KKH.

This was in the news:

Three killed in attack on bus in Pakistan mountains

05 Jul 2004 08:50:25 GMT
ISLAMABAD, July 5 (Reuters) - A woman and two men were killed and six people were wounded when gunmen opened fire on a bus on the Karakoram Highway in mountainous northern Pakistan, a popular destination for foreign climbing parties, police said on Monday.
The bus ferrying local people came under attack early on Sunday near Kohistan town, about 160 km (100 miles) north of the capital, Islamabad.
Kohistan police chief Kashif Alam told Reuters the assailants signalled the bus to stop but the driver refused to do so, prompting the attackers to open fire.
"The preliminary investigations reveal that it was an incident of attempted dacoity (robbery)," he told Reuters by telephone. He said two suspects had been arrested.
Alam said such incidents should not discourage tourists from visiting northern Pakistan, which boasts five of the world's 14 peaks higher than 8,000 metres (26,250 ft).
"We have been providing full security to tourists and will continue to do that."
Incidents of robbery are fairly frequent in the poverty-stricken Kohistan region, where people avoid travelling at night.

Volga_Volga, are you still going? Which region?

I doubt there´s malaria in the north. I presume it´s like in northern India- malaria safe (I mean the mts).

Safe travels.

Jun 2nd, 2004, 14:28	#17
bijapuri laid traps for troubadours Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Priustan Posts: 2,602	This is from the newsgroup soc.history.ancient and is a footnote to a lengthy account of archaeological sites in Pakistan. Sadly, it substantiates my gut feeling about what has been happening there -------- 18: Final note For non-Muslim westerners, travel in Pakistan involves some minor problems. I am not talking about the heat or the dangerous traffic -obstacles that can be overcome- or the hotels (which are excellent). But it appears that there is really something changing in the Sunna attitude towards westerners. At Rothas, people threw stones towards our jeep, although they stopped when I stepped out of the car. In one of the mosques at Uch, people spat at us. Worst of all, in Peshawar, I was denied access to a mosque, a kind of unhospitality that I have never experienced before in an islamic country and found shocking. Even in the holy city of the Iranian Shi'a, Qom, I was courteously allowed to visit the tomb of Fatima and could talk to an ayatollah. Yet, I do not want to end this message with this negative note, and add that I have met many friendly and kind people, and I hope I will one day be able to return to Pakistan. Jona -- Jona Lendering http://www.livius.org __________________ Focusing your life solely on making a buck shows a certain poverty of ambition. It asks too little of yourself. Because it's only when you hitch your wagon to something larger than yourself that you realize your true potential. Barack Obama lookit me!!!: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bijapuri/ Utube fuzzy logic: http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=bijapuri&p =r

Jun 2nd, 2004, 23:28	#18
volga_volga Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 1,459	comebackalive at first, i hesitated to post the link here because this site is quite subjective although is full of facts also... take it with a grain of salt. not very often i come across a site that gives a summary of the world's dangerous places with explanation why they are considered so. anyways, here is the scoop on Pakistan. bear in mind, though, that is has not been updated for some time, as the author is said to be kept hostage in Colombia (I saw it on CNN I think) - is that the reason the Colombia link is not working, I wonder?

Jul 9th, 2004, 00:00	#21
volga_volga Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 1,459	Pakistan itinerary I'm still waiting for my amazon-ordered second-hand (nothing in trade except for LP!) travel guide but i am impatient to start planning! i have three weeks for Pakistan in September. I have never been to Pak before. I am no into serious trekking or mounteneering, but day treks are OK as long as i end up in a bed with a hot water shower or a bucket at the end of the day. I am travelling alone (and would like to keep it this way ie i won't be wasting days away in travellers' hotels looking for travel partners to hook up with). I'm landing in Islamabad. Travel mainly by bus. so, having all that in mind, what about: Islamabad - Lahore - Islamabad with 2-3 days in Lahore Islamabad - Peshawar - Islamabad with 2-3 days in Peshawar (and more if i feel i can manage!) will certainly go up to the Khyber Pass for a day but won't cross into Afganistan YET Islamabad - Muzaffarabad - Islamabad ? with 2-3 days in Muzaffarabad and exploring POK and the terrorist training camps (using the map supplied by the Indian government ) then i am not sure. I want to take the Islamabad - Skardu flight, which has "most scenic" views over Himalayas... God willing as it is very much dependent on the weather conditions. i would like to spend the rest of the trip in the Northen Areas, but I don't know where exactly, i guess i'll leave it to when i get there... what do you think? how long does the bus journey up the KKH take, between Islamabad and Khunjerab Pass? any comments will be appreciated!! v-v Challo Pakistan!!!!!! __________________ Tibetan Orphanage School in China My other favourite place is Pakistan Travel Forum

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Jun 2nd, 2004, 08:29	#16
Betsy Lotze Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bakersfield, CA Posts: 41	Well, we're going to try it. We haven't been since '92, but hubby was born in Pak (American parents were working there) and wants to take our kids to see some places. A friend who just got back (and has 3 young kids) assures us that it won't be a problem (but we will be staying with friends, and not advertizing our arrival). Our biggest concern is returning to India afterward...will anyone harrass an American born in Pak who is returning to India? We're leaving in 6 days...we'll let you know!

Jun 14th, 2004, 03:26	#20
ace Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 120	has anyone had any experiences with any tours in pakistan?

Jul 9th, 2004, 00:05	#22
bijapuri laid traps for troubadours Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Priustan Posts: 2,602	oh, c'mon, V-V, take a run up K2! Double dare ya

Jul 9th, 2004, 20:01	#23
volga_volga Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 1,459	nay, i won't leave the question to the oblivion that quickly... BUMP!

Jul 9th, 2004, 22:30	#24
maree Maha Guru Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New Zealander in Bangkok Posts: 850	Islamabad to Gilgit by bus was about 17 hours oR MAYBE 19)Gilgit as far as Passu was probably 4-5 hours and that's as far as I went.

Jul 14th, 2004, 18:23	#25
Dakota Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 72	Hi, I finally got my flight confirmed. Now, it´s the safety issue that´s in the air. I am female traveler who always travels solo. My orignal plan was to go from Islamabad --> Gilgit --> Kasghar --> Passu --> Gilgit --> Naltar Valley --> either back to Islamabad, or over to Chitral, Peshawar. Since the recent trouble reports about robberies and attacks I am a bit weary about the whole travel. I would love to see Pakistan, and Kashgar, but don´t think it´s worth getting killed in the process. All advise and suggestions much appreciated Happy travels!

Jul 14th, 2004, 20:18	#26
volga_volga Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 1,459	what kind of trouble reports, Dakota? (i must start watching news) btw do you need malaria medication for Northern Pakistan?

Jul 14th, 2004, 20:58	#27
beach Lost in translation Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: India ! Posts: 2,234	From Lahore you can go the Wagah entry port to India. And you too can witness that ‘gate closing’ melodrama. Yes, this time you have to clap for the Pakistani rangers performance than the BSF people on this side. Watch their faces closely , you can see the whole of indo-pak problem on the face. Urmila went there recently to give a copy of her latest movie (indo pak theme) to the rangers. It is the point of love-hate in the two nations relations.

Jul 16th, 2004, 03:46	#29
Betsy Lotze Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bakersfield, CA Posts: 41	Warning about Wagah border...we went on a Sunday night about 3 weeks ago. It was so crowded (over an hour before the ceremony started) that we couldn't see anything. (My kids still refer to the so-crowded-together-you-can't-get-a breath conditions as "Indian personal space." ) It was fun anyway, and the atmosphere was more like a football game than anything else...it gave us hope for the future of the two countries...but I would definitely NOT go back on a weekend! And, unfortunately we were unable to go into Pakistan this trip--not enough time or money--but the kids did get to see "a bit" of the country their dad grew up in.

Jul 18th, 2004, 21:31	#30
Dakota Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 72	Hi, Sorry for this late reply. Trouble reported about a bus being stopped at gun point on the KKH. This was in the news: Three killed in attack on bus in Pakistan mountains 05 Jul 2004 08:50:25 GMT ISLAMABAD, July 5 (Reuters) - A woman and two men were killed and six people were wounded when gunmen opened fire on a bus on the Karakoram Highway in mountainous northern Pakistan, a popular destination for foreign climbing parties, police said on Monday. The bus ferrying local people came under attack early on Sunday near Kohistan town, about 160 km (100 miles) north of the capital, Islamabad. Kohistan police chief Kashif Alam told Reuters the assailants signalled the bus to stop but the driver refused to do so, prompting the attackers to open fire. "The preliminary investigations reveal that it was an incident of attempted dacoity (robbery)," he told Reuters by telephone. He said two suspects had been arrested. Alam said such incidents should not discourage tourists from visiting northern Pakistan, which boasts five of the world's 14 peaks higher than 8,000 metres (26,250 ft). "We have been providing full security to tourists and will continue to do that." Incidents of robbery are fairly frequent in the poverty-stricken Kohistan region, where people avoid travelling at night. Volga_Volga, are you still going? Which region? I doubt there´s malaria in the north. I presume it´s like in northern India- malaria safe (I mean the mts). Safe travels.

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