Chai and Chat - May we talk here? Talk about anything about India with other Members of the forum. Formerly the Yak Yak Yak forum.

The Spinoff Opium thread


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Jun 20th, 2008, 19:23   #1
just another member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: india
Posts: 1,642
Mod note: New thread created out of offtopic posts in another thread, so abrupt start, plus some of the posts may not make sense without the original thread reference.

The original thread the posts were extracted from is
unplugging the ganges...


singsub:
apologies huzoor - i'm kinda hijacking your thread
have got a couple of url's i wish to share as well -
and heck - the thread title suggests
it can accomodate just about anything on india


the first:
" ... there's a method in the ensuing madness.
against all odds - things actually get done!"



the second:
Quote:
I was looking into it as I began writing the book about five years ago. Like most Indians, I had very little idea about opium.

I had no idea that India was the largest opium exporter for centuries. I had no idea that opium was essentially the commodity which financed the British Raj in India.

cap'n and dd - am sure both of you'd enjoy reading 'sea of poppies' sometime amitav ghosh is known for his excruciatingly detailed research!
nayan: buy it today



:brishti

Last edited by capt_mahajan : Jun 21st, 2008 at 09:52. Reason: created new thread
brishti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20th, 2008, 19:42   #2
Neophite
 
Haylo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: This week I am mostly living in England
Posts: 809
Quote:
Both Indian and British history appear to have glossed over this part of colonial rule. Absolutely. Opium was the fundamental undergirding of our economy for centuries. It is strange that [even] for someone like me who studied history and knew a fair amount about Indian history, I was completely unaware of it.
I too find strange that he was completely unaware of it. Surely he would have known of the East India Company's shameful role in the lead up to the Opium Wars. Even I know about that, and I only have an amateur interest in history!
Haylo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20th, 2008, 19:51   #3
just another member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: india
Posts: 1,642
haylo

if the man is acknowledging unawareness - what is the problem?
personally - i dont even know whats going on in the street next to mine
so what?


:brishti
brishti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20th, 2008, 20:11   #4
Neophite
 
Haylo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: This week I am mostly living in England
Posts: 809
Quote:
Originally Posted by brishti View Post
haylo

if the man is acknowledging unawareness - what is the problem?
Oh, no problem at all!

The book sounds interesting, I was just surprised that a historian had not heard of something that I thought was both common knowledge and a corner stone of an important period in Indian history.
Haylo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20th, 2008, 20:15   #5
Maha Guru Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Land that shakes and bakes.
Posts: 3,777
Quote:
I too find strange that he was completely unaware of it.
I guess you have to hype a book. And perhaps he is considering that the general public doesn't read economic history for which this was an old and hoary controversy..

I couldn't get the first link to work?
edwardseco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20th, 2008, 20:27   #6
(in charge of navel affairs)
 
capt_mahajan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: India
Posts: 9,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by brishti View Post
if the man is acknowledging unawareness - what is the problem?
Men. Next he will proclaim innocence.



-I can't open the link too, but going by the previous posts-

More seriously, it is surprising how many Indians do not know about the opium 'trade', or the involvement of the forefathers of one of the biggest Indian industrial houses today.. the Tata's.. in it.

And it wasn't just the East India Company, it was the British crown, too. If I remember accurately, the British Government was involved in the trade for more than sixty years after 1857 in India. First the shareholders of the East India Company, and then the Queen, got rich on it. And so did the Tatas start building their fortune then, amongst other 'loyal' and influential Indians, on the back of opium and its transportation .
capt_mahajan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20th, 2008, 20:47   #7
Not Your Guru Member
 
machadinha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: yörp
Posts: 10,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardseco View Post
I couldn't get the first link to work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by capt_mahajan View Post
-I can't open the link too, but going by the previous posts-
Which one, the ABC News one in post #2? It's a video link, may not open on slow connections or if you have it blocked or so.

Or you mean the very first Uncyclopedia one in post #1? That appears to be a mirror site, it opened with me before, but not now, probably overloaded. It was a typical (and typically hilarious) Uncyclopedia "article," and nothing to do with anything so remotely serious as the opium trade of yore. Let's see, here it is on the actual site: http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Ganges

Quote:
“In India the landscape is monotonous, the climate brutal, the people ignorant, and the diseases prolific. Thank God I have never had to go there.”

~ Sir Malcolm Piddlie-Softbrayne, ESP, DDS, on India


(People might like their caption on opium for that matter: http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Opium )
__________________
Reading tips, all picked up at IndiaMike : INDAX's A Comprehensive Guide To India / Dinoj Surendran's Desi Humor / ITHVC on Culture Shock & Travel Health / JetLag Travel Guides For the Undiscerning Traveller / India Travel Links
machadinha is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20th, 2008, 20:52   #8
(in charge of navel affairs)
 
capt_mahajan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: India
Posts: 9,718
I couldn't open the uncylopedia or brishti's BBC one.
capt_mahajan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20th, 2008, 21:09   #9
Neophite
 
Haylo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: This week I am mostly living in England
Posts: 809
Quote:
Originally Posted by machadinha View Post
People might like their caption on opium for that matter: http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Opium )
If I hadn't clicked on that, I would never have learned of "Kitten Huffing". Lets hope Birds doesn't read that one!

Of the original http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Ganges article, I particularly liked the following...
Quote:
Dirk Snyddering: I point to one crate and ask Mohat if he can read the chicken-scratch writing on its side.
Mohat: "That is being some DPROM memory made in Taipei."
Dirk Snyddering: If I understand my uneducated guide correctly, the crate contains fermented penguin mucus from Chile
Haylo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20th, 2008, 21:19   #10
Disclaimer- He who knows not what he speaks of
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Here
Posts: 458
I think you guys might be forgetting the fact that opium and it's derivatives had a very crucial medical purpose for many thousands of years. That India and the East India Company were huge producers of it shouldn't at all cause the nefarious tone that seems to predominate at the moment.

Morphine and codiene weren't developed until the early 1800's, so raw opium, and it's extract- laudanum, were the only efficient pain killers in the world up to that point.
grikoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20th, 2008, 21:25   #11
Not Your Guru Member
 
machadinha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: yörp
Posts: 10,136
Um, I think the history of both the British and Dutch (and possibly some other countries') East India Companies don't exactly betray their benign humanitarian intentions in the trade. What was essentially a form of proto-capitalism and monopolization, along with the trade in plenty another exotic goody at the time. And an addicted market is about as good as it gets of course, the same went, and still does, for sugar and coffee and tobacco and the likes. If you read about the history of the latter three, there was nothing at all innocent or care-free about it. It was, and still is, a deliberate attempt to monopolize markets (to the detriment of traditional local agricultural systems of course) and get the home market hooked, instead.

Examples abound of Indonesian farmers under the Dutch being forcibly barred from growing anything but poppies (or nutmeg, or cloves, or pepper, or... even on islands that wouldn't sustain such crops), leading to famine and mass suicide and whatnot (or to the occasional uprising of course. Guess what we called such people back then, say 1-200 years ago? Terrorists, I kid you not. The word is no new invention.) For the three already-mentioned acceptable drugs, the history of South America presents an even sorrier picture of exploitation if at all possible.

I believe the opium situation (and again some other crops no doubt) was no different or even worse in China, and in fact partly shaped its modern history, or certainly its particular process of decolonization. Anyway, no, sir, don't get me started.
machadinha is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20th, 2008, 21:34   #12
(in charge of navel affairs)
 
capt_mahajan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: India
Posts: 9,718
Grikoo, the produce of opium was the mainstay that kept the east india company going for 50 years in this country, and the crown for another 50 odd. This didnt happen with medicinal use quantities. Hundreds of tonnes was being smuggled into China (illegally) annually.

I am not even talking yet about the Opium addicts and wars in China. It wasn't medicinal, China was growing enough for medicinal use

And all this happened while opium was severely restricted in Britain, though not illegal.

The morality of this exercise is always hidden by the fact that the British made the rules, so it wasn't technically illegal.

Neither was slavery in the US. Or signs on Indian hill station mall roads (central street, for want of a better phrase) and clubs in cities saying 'Dogs and Indians not allowed'

Not that long ago, either. My father remembers them.

Implying that this (opium) was not nefarious seems to indicate that it was somehow ok.

Yes, it was legal.

Legality is nothing.

Last edited by capt_mahajan : Jun 20th, 2008 at 21:47. Reason: put opium in brackets in the third last sentence
capt_mahajan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20th, 2008, 21:39   #13
Neophite
 
Haylo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: This week I am mostly living in England
Posts: 809
Quote:
Originally Posted by grikoo View Post
I think you guys might be forgetting the fact that opium and it's derivatives had a very crucial medical purpose for many thousands of years. That India and the East India Company were huge producers of it shouldn't at all cause the nefarious tone that seems to predominate at the moment.
Actually, yes it should.

The role of the British in this whole sorry trade is shameful and had long reaching consequences.
Haylo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20th, 2008, 21:46   #14
just another member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: india
Posts: 1,642
hmmm....


the links - for them who couldnt access it above:

the first one: abc news [ its a video so may take a while ]
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=1674437


the second one: bbc interview
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7460682.stm



:brishti
brishti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20th, 2008, 22:02   #15
Disclaimer- He who knows not what he speaks of
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Here
Posts: 458
I'm not saying it was totally innocent, just that historically speaking, opium has primarily served a critical medical function for thousands of years.

Of course trade in any addictive substance leads to abuses of various sorts.

I'm not sure that the statement that MOST of the opium was being grown for illicit purposes is truly accurate. I have no exact data on the subject, so can't really say, but I find it highly unlikely.

My understanding of the opium trade is that while abuse of the substance has always been an issue, it has never be THAT big of an issue, at least not until stronger compounds like morphine and heroin were developed.

Feel free to provide data indicating otherwise. I would genuinely be interested to see it.
grikoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do people try to sell you drugs,opium,etc? gregornot Scams and Annoyances in India 66 May 3rd, 2007 01:30
Rajasthan farmers face opium ban Nick-H India Travel News and Commentary 0 Oct 23rd, 2006 23:28
Nonsense Thread Paagla Dashu Kolkata (Calcutta) 28 Mar 10th, 2006 23:19
Sorry but i had to start a new thread... zenkris Forum Help and Announcements 32 May 14th, 2005 08:40
Out of Curiousity - Weed and Opium? madmaxs Chai and Chat 8 Jan 18th, 2004 00:16



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0
indiamike.com ©2001-2008

Syndicate this content on your website with rss or javascript data feeds.