Indian diaspora in the UK

the opoponax · Mar 13th, 2008, 21:19

The point really isn't how anti-semitic the UK is or isn't (or was or wasn't), but that the story of the Jews in Europe is a very different one from the story of South Asian immigration to the UK. Thus the outcome will be different.

This is starting to remind me of the constant (and pointless) discussion in the US about blacks and hispanics and how hispanic immigrants whose families have come to the US much more recently than blacks have started to have nominal civil rights are "getting ahead" a lot faster than blacks tend to be. And of course the answer to that question is an easy one -- they are not congruent stories, and the black community has had a lot more to deal with than just "oh, hey, let's teach our kids English and send them to good schools!"

mr_rush · Mar 13th, 2008, 21:36

Very few stories are congruent. It does not mean that we should not compare.

Nick-H · Mar 13th, 2008, 21:41

But the validity of the comparison can be questioned.

machadinha · Mar 13th, 2008, 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

There are many people who are technically Jewish, but have no interest in their faith and not much in their history.

Quite. Which is also why I don't agree with such statements as

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_rush

Yet Jews they still manage to maintain both a distinct cultural identity

The premise is simply wrong; how can the argument follow?

Indojingai · Mar 13th, 2008, 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_rush

I disagree. Not knowing about Independence struggle is like a Jew not knowing about the Holocaust or a Brit not knowing about World War II. Just because an event does not have a direct impact on your day to day life does not make it not worth knowing. Of course no one should be forced to learn anything. I am not 'the cultural police'. It just seems a shame but hey, I guess British Indians in their 20s are not so different from the young and hip Indian middle class who are all too willing to forget their heritage.

I am not a party to discussions on faith.

Staying in context, okay... lets say they (British Indians) know it. Now what? Better chances of getting that dream job/dream girl/dream ice-cream...
If you go into the details of the independance struggle and what good/bad it did to India, the British will say side-taking (in their mind - that you are side taking, your own side i.e.). And that will go against the other agenda of having to assimilate into the host society in some way. (Any more discussion on this topic and the thread will likely be closed - as has been in the past.)

Indian people live in India so its relevant to know for them of the independance stuff. The school kids dont have a choice, we get this - the country's history i.e. - taught in schools. (Just like any other place on the palnet.)

the opoponax · Mar 13th, 2008, 21:46

Well, OK - but why do folks seem so keen to compare South Asians and Jews, but not South Asians and Jamaicans, or South Asians and the Irish, or South Asians in the UK with East Asians in the US or Arabs and North Africans in France?

karuna · Mar 13th, 2008, 22:16

If you haven't seen it I thoroughly recommend watching I for India. It is a series of home movies (intercut with cringeworthily racist and patronizing British TV of the time, and some current too

) shot by a doctor from Meerut who settled in the UK at the beginning of the 1970s, and corresponding film from his family back in India, that were sent as kind of "visual letters" to each other.

I found it utterly heartbreaking. You witness the slow, inexorable divergence of experience, of lives. He wants to go back, plans to, but never does. The statements made on each video are so poignant it's ridiculous. The brother in India pointing out that they never send stories of funny, happy things that have happened to them in England, the little girl introducing a piece of film with "Grandmother, I don't remember you...". How distant and meaningless it is to the little ones, but how sharp a pain his separation from India is to Mr Suri himself.

I really recommend it.

the opoponax · Mar 13th, 2008, 22:19

Not available from netflix in the USA... boo... Well, it's added to my queue in the event that it is ever released here.

Kingstonian · Mar 13th, 2008, 22:31

Yes - I just saw that the other night. I was rivetted.

Mr & Mrs Suri belong to the local video club (in Darlington?) - and their daughter filmed them there - with a local (white) guy giving a talk about his recent trip to India (his 1st slide - a rubbish dump, and talk about the extremes of poverty-wealth, etc etc). Mrs S's face, apparently listening to this, was a picture itself.

But, Karuna - they did go back to India, for a bit, and tried to settle back there, but were unable to, and returned again to the UK. One of the daughters left to make a go of it in Australia - more tears and heartbreak, it seemed, as the next generation too scattered further afield.

It was a shocking reminder of the explicitly racist climate here back in the 1960's and 70's, which I prefer to forget most of the time ... (Also, did you see the earlier programme on Enoch Powell, and That Speech?)

brishti · Mar 13th, 2008, 22:32

mr rush:

Quote:

Not knowing about Independence struggle is like a Jew not knowing about the Holocaust or a Brit not knowing about World War II.

you are comparing a freedom movement with genocide and a world war - in all honesty, i am dumbstruck at your insensitivity - i am being kind when i say that.

i was born post independence. it has no bearing on me. we were occupied once - and now we're not.
thats about all the significance that it has to me. and yes, we have great sidewalks in calcutta.

living in india - and yes, i am an indian too - i am at best [ or worst ] not hanging onto age-old beliefs/customs/history.
does that make me less indian?
my awareness/energy/opinion is centered around what the country is today - and trust me - it aint that romantic a picture.

i am always curious about what indians mean when they say 'culture' 'heritage' 'customs'.
would you, sit for a meal with, say, a cab driver/doorman/janitor of indian origin in the uk?
or is it customary to socialise only with people of your own class... same as in the old country?
that is part of our heritage as well

i am being a tad tough here - but heck - there are so many inconsistencies.

what does 'respecting' an elder really mean to you? is it... do as i say and not as i do - no discussions - i am an elder, thus i must be obeyed?

does being indian mean - listening to hindi songs of the b/w era?

what is your grief really about? try and elaborate exactly what it is that unnerves you about the gen-next of indian origin.

if the gen-next is not acting 'indian' enough, there must be a reason for that.
is it possible that the older generation has not passed on anything of significance for them youngsters to appreciate and hence retain?

in these troubled times, the qualities to uphold in any culture are - tolerance, respect and rights of the individual, the freedom to be who/what you are... needless to add, not to the detriment of society.

here is an excerpt from an article in time magazine:

Quote:

In his most recent book Identity and Violence, Amartya Sen describes himself as: an Asian, an Indian citizen, a Bengali with Bangladeshi ancestry, an American or British resident, an economist, a dabbler in philosophy, an author, a Sanskritist, a strong believer in secularism and democracy, a man, a feminist, a heterosexual, a defender of gay and lesbian rights, a Hindu with a nonreligious lifestyle, a non-Brahmin, and a nonbeliever in an afterlife.

http://www.time.com/time/asia/2006/heroes/at_sen.html

:brishti

karuna · Mar 13th, 2008, 22:41

Quote:

Also, did you see the earlier programme on Enoch Powell, and That Speech?

Yes. I don't think I comprehended before just how damaging it was.

Nick-H · Mar 13th, 2008, 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by the opoponax

Well, OK - but why do folks seem so keen to compare South Asians and Jews,

Because the Jews get everything thrown at them, relevant or not!

Really, all this stuff can be better understood by watching Goodness Gracious Me! on British TV --- does it still get shown?

The answers are there, and you'll get a laugh as well.

Kingstonian · Mar 13th, 2008, 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by karuna

Yes. I don't think I comprehended before just how damaging it was.

Me either. I remember when I was growing up in the 60's and 70's, Enoch Powell was definitely regarded with some distaste by the (white) adults around me, but it was only now, seeing the footage all these years later, that the full destructive force and context of it struck me.

Goodness Gracious Me! - some re-runs are going out this month (part of the current "White" season on the BBC, I guess), but I haven't seen them around for quite a while. Still raising laughs, though! Even more for me now than when I first saw it.

karuna · Mar 13th, 2008, 23:16

You can get most of Goodness Gracious Me on YouTube, but yes, it is re-running on UK TV at the moment and it's available to rent on lovefilm.com.

This one's bound to offend someone:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tK-AQizNJpo

Nick-H · Mar 14th, 2008, 00:18

Nice one Brishti, well said.

Though I think you under-estimate your country's struggle for freedom from my motherland, and the damage that my ancestors did to India --- but we've done that topic pretty much in another recent thread.

Mar 13th, 2008, 21:41	#18
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 27,763	But the validity of the comparison can be questioned. __________________ . Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

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Mar 13th, 2008, 21:19	#16
the opoponax Maha Guru Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Brooklyn, via New Orleans Posts: 1,052	The point really isn't how anti-semitic the UK is or isn't (or was or wasn't), but that the story of the Jews in Europe is a very different one from the story of South Asian immigration to the UK. Thus the outcome will be different. This is starting to remind me of the constant (and pointless) discussion in the US about blacks and hispanics and how hispanic immigrants whose families have come to the US much more recently than blacks have started to have nominal civil rights are "getting ahead" a lot faster than blacks tend to be. And of course the answer to that question is an easy one -- they are not congruent stories, and the black community has had a lot more to deal with than just "oh, hey, let's teach our kids English and send them to good schools!"

Mar 13th, 2008, 21:36	#17
mr_rush Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: UK Posts: 126	Very few stories are congruent. It does not mean that we should not compare.

Mar 13th, 2008, 21:46	#21
the opoponax Maha Guru Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Brooklyn, via New Orleans Posts: 1,052	Well, OK - but why do folks seem so keen to compare South Asians and Jews, but not South Asians and Jamaicans, or South Asians and the Irish, or South Asians in the UK with East Asians in the US or Arabs and North Africans in France?

Mar 13th, 2008, 22:16	#22
karuna The cat's mother Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: the wrong side of the Y-A-M-U-N-A Posts: 1,936	If you haven't seen it I thoroughly recommend watching I for India. It is a series of home movies (intercut with cringeworthily racist and patronizing British TV of the time, and some current too ) shot by a doctor from Meerut who settled in the UK at the beginning of the 1970s, and corresponding film from his family back in India, that were sent as kind of "visual letters" to each other. I found it utterly heartbreaking. You witness the slow, inexorable divergence of experience, of lives. He wants to go back, plans to, but never does. The statements made on each video are so poignant it's ridiculous. The brother in India pointing out that they never send stories of funny, happy things that have happened to them in England, the little girl introducing a piece of film with "Grandmother, I don't remember you...". How distant and meaningless it is to the little ones, but how sharp a pain his separation from India is to Mr Suri himself. I really recommend it.

Mar 13th, 2008, 22:19	#23
the opoponax Maha Guru Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Brooklyn, via New Orleans Posts: 1,052	Not available from netflix in the USA... boo... Well, it's added to my queue in the event that it is ever released here.

Mar 13th, 2008, 22:31	#24
Kingstonian Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: UK Posts: 487	Yes - I just saw that the other night. I was rivetted. Mr & Mrs Suri belong to the local video club (in Darlington?) - and their daughter filmed them there - with a local (white) guy giving a talk about his recent trip to India (his 1st slide - a rubbish dump, and talk about the extremes of poverty-wealth, etc etc). Mrs S's face, apparently listening to this, was a picture itself. But, Karuna - they did go back to India, for a bit, and tried to settle back there, but were unable to, and returned again to the UK. One of the daughters left to make a go of it in Australia - more tears and heartbreak, it seemed, as the next generation too scattered further afield. It was a shocking reminder of the explicitly racist climate here back in the 1960's and 70's, which I prefer to forget most of the time ... (Also, did you see the earlier programme on Enoch Powell, and That Speech?)

Mar 13th, 2008, 23:16	#29
karuna The cat's mother Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: the wrong side of the Y-A-M-U-N-A Posts: 1,936	You can get most of Goodness Gracious Me on YouTube, but yes, it is re-running on UK TV at the moment and it's available to rent on lovefilm.com. This one's bound to offend someone: http://youtube.com/watch?v=tK-AQizNJpo

Mar 14th, 2008, 00:18	#30
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 27,763	Nice one Brishti, well said. Though I think you under-estimate your country's struggle for freedom from my motherland, and the damage that my ancestors did to India --- but we've done that topic pretty much in another recent thread.

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