Indian diaspora in the UK

mr_rush · Mar 12th, 2008, 00:33

I am increasingly saddened by the lack of cultural identity that British Indians seem to have. This really became apparent when I went to university (in the UK) and noticed how little the majority of Gujrati and Punjabi students there knew about their own history. The typical Gujji student did not know Indian geography outside of Bombay (where their UK-India flight lands), Ahmedabad (where their flight connects) and their local home town. They were ignorant to virtually all of Indian history and culture outside of garba, navratri and diwali. Even when it came to recent history such as Independence knowledge was scanty at best. They had heard the name of Gandhi but could not say anything more apart from the fact that he led India to independence. Many UK Gujratis came to the UK via East Africa. Even knowledge about East Africa and the expelling of Asians from Uganda was poor.
I wonder if in another couple of generations the majority of British Indians will be completely indistinguishable from the AngloSaxon population less their skin colour. Knowledge of history has gone, knowledge of culture, language and religion is fading fast. Perhaps in 50 years all we will be left with is dancing garba, speaking pigeon gujrati, watching a Bollywood film and supporting the Indian cricket team.
Maybe this is not a bad thing - as immigrants we need to integrate into the society we join. However, I wonder if we should sacrifice fully our cultural heritage. If we do not know where we come from, how can we really know where we are going.
The Indian diaspora is in contrast to the Jewish one who have been in the UK for considerably longer. Yet they manage to (on the whole) successfully integrate into the wider community while maintaining their language and distinct cultural identity. Why is this possible for them and not for us.

Anyway, this is not a trolling post. I would like some feedback on this. Obviously I have made some generalisations - some of my British Indian friends are both knowledgeable about their background and integrated into wider society.

blackbird · Mar 12th, 2008, 01:20

Interesting post and I think quite a brave one... I'm not really qualified to answer your question but I do have a couple of observations.

Firstly that most people of south Asian origin I've known who were born in the UK are more British than Indian in their whole outlook on life. Which aspects of the two cultures they choose varies -- for example, I know a Sikh man who is in most respects very traditional (eg in marrying off his daughters), but cuts his hair; I've met others who look totally traditional but come across more like typical Bristolians, and give the impression of just going through the motions to please their families. But it seems to me that most of those born in this country prefer the social freedoms they are exposed to here, than the traditional Indian family structures their parents grew up with. Many of them do show little interest in India and are completely baffled as to why I keep going back there!

Secondly, my experience in India is that the majority of people seem to know very little about their own country, outside their village and the nearest town. So maybe a lot of these Gujuratis are not learning much from their families because their families don't know a great deal themselves?

the opoponax · Mar 12th, 2008, 01:32

Well there's a short answer there -- growing up in India, you will have your entire education structured around Indian geography, Indian history, Indian languages, Indian government, etc. You will be tested on that information and everyone will expect you to know it. Growing up in the UK, US, or any other country, your education will be based around the history, geography, politics, and languages of that country, and you'll be tested on that and expected to know it.

Not to mention that it's a lot easier to be aware of history, geography, culture, etc. when you're living in that place and seeing evidence of it. I learned most of my American geography by traveling around the country, and a lot of my US history from visiting important historical places. This is much more difficult to do when you are living on a different continent from your entire cultural background.

And of course the usual answer that the color of someone's skin and the texture of their hair, or even what kind of last name they have, doesn't necessarily dictate what culture they will consider themselves to be part of. My family is mainly Irish and Swedish. Aside from Ikea and Guinness, I know next to nothing about my own ancestry. But I make a mean gumbo!

Oh, and regarding the comparison to Judaism -- there's a short answer to that, too, and it's not very pretty. Until very, very recently there were a lot of laws controlling what Jews were allowed to do with their lives, what kinds of education they were allowed to have, where they were allowed to live, etc. etc. Thus they didn't even have the opportunity to decide "let's assimilate and be like the English!" unless they wanted to convert or live a secret double life. In the US those limits by and large did not exist or couldn't be enforced, and here you get exactly the situation Indians find themselves in, for example I know people who had pepperoni pizza at their bar mitzvahs.

Familyonthemove · Mar 12th, 2008, 02:10

This is an interesting question ..... but in my view the real question is why do people need a cultural identity in the first place?

What's wrong with just being yourself?

From what I've seen here, cultural identities are used to fuel prejudice and hate .... mainly by third rate politicians on a publicity spree.

Rasika · Mar 12th, 2008, 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_rush

I am increasingly saddened by the lack of cultural identity that British Indians seem to have. ... Many UK Gujratis came to the UK via East Africa. Even knowledge about East Africa and the expelling of Asians from Uganda was poor.
... Perhaps in 50 years all we will be left with is dancing garba, speaking pigeon gujrati, watching a Bollywood film and supporting the Indian cricket team.

Amen! I also have been frequently disconcerted by this. My special interest in classical music, and it is sad to see so few people at concerts by fantastic world-renowned musicians. There is a whole BBC station dedicated to India/Asia but of such poor cultural quality... All we hear about is Bollywood.

A lot of it probably has to do with the fact that migration in the UK has mostly been from rural populations or with a commercial background - as opposed to the Indian diaspora in the USA, which consists of the more urban crowd and also those who've been university-educated and maybe more exposed to culture and history, and who have passed it on to the next generation.

There are still some pockets of young Indians I see at say Nehru Centre events or at the Bhavan - but these are predominantly from families from Delhi/Calcutta/Madras/etc...

the opoponax · Mar 12th, 2008, 02:26

Well everyone has a background and a cultural identity. It's impossible not to. You're born in a place and a time, and you're given certain beliefs, values, ways of doing things, etc. by whoever raises you. It's impossible not to experience this. Everything you do is influenced by your culture, from the way you speak and eat to what you believe about the nature of human life.

And, of course, when people take this stuff too seriously or get really militant about it, it can breed hate. For instance you should see my UK/Punjabi roommate's opinion on my habit of drinking iced tea in the summer!

~~~

Oh, and don't think it's any different amongst Indians in the USA. If anything it's harder to keep hold of your roots because just about everyone in America is an immigrant or the descendent of immigrants. In a couple of generations, everyone is expected to leave the traditions of the Old Country behind. Whereas at least in the UK you can really have this sense of Our Ancestral Culture.

Indojingai · Mar 12th, 2008, 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_rush

Perhaps in 50 years all we will be left with is dancing garba, speaking pigeon gujrati, watching a Bollywood film and supporting the Indian cricket team.

Have ones cake and eat it too.

Meaning, they (British Indians) dont need the Indian history, independence struggle, cultural stuff and all that jazz if they are living in the UK (born, grewup and will always be). It's irrelevant there, for them. (1st generation migrants is a different story.)

If all that stuff is missed that badly... well moving back should sound good. How many really do that... few if not none.

UK - beers, independance, higher quality of life, wealth, no one ever noses into any of your business
India - no drinking in front of parents, a girlfriend at most - if you're lucky, 3 times a day power cuts, doomed for life if you dont score within the top percentile or born a SC/ST, arranged marriage, dowry giving, put on fire if not dowry giving, dishonest police or government services, touch every old persons feet, emotional excess baggage in everything! And many other things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_rush

Maybe this is not a bad thing - as immigrants we need to integrate into the society we join.

Totally agreeable on this one.

Though this is in the chai chat area, I smell faint trolling in the air. Comparison to Jewish community? Jamaica, Japan or Jordan are names of countries too... not faith.

ind_pal · Mar 12th, 2008, 04:11

Most Indian people I know are proud of their Indian heritage.
People still have to get on with their lives day to day.

You're always going to get a few people who will disown their heritage because they have been badly hurt and become angry. They will go as far to be extremely hostile to anything Indian. That's similar to like people of some neighboring countries are to India.

chickpea · Mar 12th, 2008, 04:38

What, are you the cultural police or something.

I think you will find as the opoponax has stated, this is not specific to the indian culture, most people don't really think about culture or history at a young age. Most people (in any country and culture) are busy trying to fit in with their peers and avoid sticking out

Maybe you should ask persons of non indian origin the same questions and see what others have to say.

Rasika, Holland is responsible for giving "big brother" to the world, I've never seen an episode as it never interested me, but I don't feel the need to condemn others who enjoy it.

crvlvr · Mar 12th, 2008, 04:52

This is like fighting an uphill battle. Look at the european immigrants in the US. Most of them don't have any of the their European heritage/culture left. That seems to be the norm.

What is suprising is that Indian emmigrants in South East Asia and Africa who seem to have held on to theur roots for a long time. I think it could be becuase these places have significant Indian populations who have managed to make their culure more mainstream and easier for the children to follow than in area where south asian immigrants are a small minority.

Oh, BTE, being "Indian" is like saying you are "European". There in no homogenous culture or even langiuage that binds all Indians together.

wonderwomanusa · Mar 12th, 2008, 06:19

Quote:

The Indian diaspora is in contrast to the Jewish one who have been in the UK for considerably longer. Yet they manage to (on the whole) successfully integrate into the wider community while maintaining their language and distinct cultural identity. Why is this possible for them and not for us.

The Dalai Lama wondered that, too, and held a conference to which he invited Jewish leaders. Read THE JEW IN THE LOTUS for an account of this.

Nick-H · Mar 12th, 2008, 16:23

There are a number of areas in London where 'Indian' culture is so alive you could almost think you were in India ---apart from the weather.

Somebody mentioned the Nehru Centre and the Bhavan... Bharatya Vidia Bhavan's london branch, which is strong and thriving, is actually doing so well largely because of the Sri-Lankan-refugee population. You'll find that they comprise the vast majority of the Bharatnatyam and Carnatic music classes, and that that is the vast majority of the student numbers. Furthermore, although it likes to think that it is unique, there are many independent teachers and Tamil schools operating in London every weekend and many evenings, many temples operated by these people, and a good audience for carnatic music performances. I don't know what will happen to the next generation, but there are hundreds, if not thousands of S-L-Tamil parents and children keeping their culture very much alive.

Perhaps the key here is in the word refugee. People who have had little or no choice in abandoning their homes are likely to have a great deal more interest in keeping their culture alive than those who left it of their free will because they were looking for better things .

brishti · Mar 12th, 2008, 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasika

as opposed to the Indian diaspora in the USA, which consists of the more urban crowd and also those who've been university-educated and maybe more exposed to culture and history, and who have passed it on to the next generation.

the NRI's???

now that absolutely deserves a thread of its own!!!

as for the generation who are of indian origin but born in foreign lands - IMO its not easy for them Mr Rush. We have a term for them... the ABCD's american-born-confused-desi's.
At some point they have an identity crisis, and that is a trauma for anybody. it is more constructive to gel in with the country of your birth.
at some point - when/if the need arises, they can always get back in touch and 'discover'. india aint going nowhere... its all about the personal time and need.

i agree with crvlvr " There in no homogenous culture or even langiuage that binds all Indians together."
and yes - doing the garba/bhangra, diwali greets at the pier = being indian to most.

unfortunately, in india, there is a gross stereotypical notion, that if you're unconventional, you are western

IMO, being traditional and questioning past 'customs' is being more progressive. its all in the zeitgeist.

:brishti

mr_rush · Mar 13th, 2008, 20:15

Jews have been able to work in any profession in the UK and have complete freedom of worship etc for over a hundred years. Mass migration of people from the subcontinent happened started only in the 50's. Yet Jews they still manage to maintain both a distinct cultural identity and assimilate well in the wider community.

Quote:

Meaning, they (British Indians) dont need the Indian history, independence struggle, cultural stuff and all that jazz if they are living in the UK (born, grewup and will always be). It's irrelevant there, for them. (1st generation migrants is a different story.)

I disagree. Not knowing about Independence struggle is like a Jew not knowing about the Holocaust or a Brit not knowing about World War II. Just because an event does not have a direct impact on your day to day life does not make it not worth knowing. Of course no one should be forced to learn anything. I am not 'the cultural police'. It just seems a shame but hey, I guess British Indians in their 20s are not so different from the young and hip Indian middle class who are all too willing to forget their heritage.

Nick-H · Mar 13th, 2008, 21:11

I think somebody mentioned that Jews have a religion to bind them together. Their geographic and cultural origins vary widely.

There are many people who are technically Jewish, but have no interest in their faith and not much in their history.

Mar 12th, 2008, 00:33	#1
mr_rush Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: UK Posts: 126	Indian diaspora in the UK I am increasingly saddened by the lack of cultural identity that British Indians seem to have. This really became apparent when I went to university (in the UK) and noticed how little the majority of Gujrati and Punjabi students there knew about their own history. The typical Gujji student did not know Indian geography outside of Bombay (where their UK-India flight lands), Ahmedabad (where their flight connects) and their local home town. They were ignorant to virtually all of Indian history and culture outside of garba, navratri and diwali. Even when it came to recent history such as Independence knowledge was scanty at best. They had heard the name of Gandhi but could not say anything more apart from the fact that he led India to independence. Many UK Gujratis came to the UK via East Africa. Even knowledge about East Africa and the expelling of Asians from Uganda was poor. I wonder if in another couple of generations the majority of British Indians will be completely indistinguishable from the AngloSaxon population less their skin colour. Knowledge of history has gone, knowledge of culture, language and religion is fading fast. Perhaps in 50 years all we will be left with is dancing garba, speaking pigeon gujrati, watching a Bollywood film and supporting the Indian cricket team. Maybe this is not a bad thing - as immigrants we need to integrate into the society we join. However, I wonder if we should sacrifice fully our cultural heritage. If we do not know where we come from, how can we really know where we are going. The Indian diaspora is in contrast to the Jewish one who have been in the UK for considerably longer. Yet they manage to (on the whole) successfully integrate into the wider community while maintaining their language and distinct cultural identity. Why is this possible for them and not for us. Anyway, this is not a trolling post. I would like some feedback on this. Obviously I have made some generalisations - some of my British Indian friends are both knowledgeable about their background and integrated into wider society.

Mar 12th, 2008, 02:10	#4
Familyonthemove Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai Posts: 275	This is an interesting question ..... but in my view the real question is why do people need a cultural identity in the first place? What's wrong with just being yourself? From what I've seen here, cultural identities are used to fuel prejudice and hate .... mainly by third rate politicians on a publicity spree. __________________ My Journal My Photos

Mar 12th, 2008, 16:23	#12
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 27,763	There are a number of areas in London where 'Indian' culture is so alive you could almost think you were in India ---apart from the weather. Somebody mentioned the Nehru Centre and the Bhavan... Bharatya Vidia Bhavan's london branch, which is strong and thriving, is actually doing so well largely because of the Sri-Lankan-refugee population. You'll find that they comprise the vast majority of the Bharatnatyam and Carnatic music classes, and that that is the vast majority of the student numbers. Furthermore, although it likes to think that it is unique, there are many independent teachers and Tamil schools operating in London every weekend and many evenings, many temples operated by these people, and a good audience for carnatic music performances. I don't know what will happen to the next generation, but there are hundreds, if not thousands of S-L-Tamil parents and children keeping their culture very much alive. Perhaps the key here is in the word refugee. People who have had little or no choice in abandoning their homes are likely to have a great deal more interest in keeping their culture alive than those who left it of their free will because they were looking for better things . __________________ . Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

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Mar 12th, 2008, 01:20	#2
blackbird Jai Maa Tarini Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Bristol, England Posts: 391	Interesting post and I think quite a brave one... I'm not really qualified to answer your question but I do have a couple of observations. Firstly that most people of south Asian origin I've known who were born in the UK are more British than Indian in their whole outlook on life. Which aspects of the two cultures they choose varies -- for example, I know a Sikh man who is in most respects very traditional (eg in marrying off his daughters), but cuts his hair; I've met others who look totally traditional but come across more like typical Bristolians, and give the impression of just going through the motions to please their families. But it seems to me that most of those born in this country prefer the social freedoms they are exposed to here, than the traditional Indian family structures their parents grew up with. Many of them do show little interest in India and are completely baffled as to why I keep going back there! Secondly, my experience in India is that the majority of people seem to know very little about their own country, outside their village and the nearest town. So maybe a lot of these Gujuratis are not learning much from their families because their families don't know a great deal themselves?

Mar 12th, 2008, 01:32	#3
the opoponax Maha Guru Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Brooklyn, via New Orleans Posts: 1,052	Well there's a short answer there -- growing up in India, you will have your entire education structured around Indian geography, Indian history, Indian languages, Indian government, etc. You will be tested on that information and everyone will expect you to know it. Growing up in the UK, US, or any other country, your education will be based around the history, geography, politics, and languages of that country, and you'll be tested on that and expected to know it. Not to mention that it's a lot easier to be aware of history, geography, culture, etc. when you're living in that place and seeing evidence of it. I learned most of my American geography by traveling around the country, and a lot of my US history from visiting important historical places. This is much more difficult to do when you are living on a different continent from your entire cultural background. And of course the usual answer that the color of someone's skin and the texture of their hair, or even what kind of last name they have, doesn't necessarily dictate what culture they will consider themselves to be part of. My family is mainly Irish and Swedish. Aside from Ikea and Guinness, I know next to nothing about my own ancestry. But I make a mean gumbo! Oh, and regarding the comparison to Judaism -- there's a short answer to that, too, and it's not very pretty. Until very, very recently there were a lot of laws controlling what Jews were allowed to do with their lives, what kinds of education they were allowed to have, where they were allowed to live, etc. etc. Thus they didn't even have the opportunity to decide "let's assimilate and be like the English!" unless they wanted to convert or live a secret double life. In the US those limits by and large did not exist or couldn't be enforced, and here you get exactly the situation Indians find themselves in, for example I know people who had pepperoni pizza at their bar mitzvahs.

Mar 12th, 2008, 02:26	#6
the opoponax Maha Guru Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Brooklyn, via New Orleans Posts: 1,052	Well everyone has a background and a cultural identity. It's impossible not to. You're born in a place and a time, and you're given certain beliefs, values, ways of doing things, etc. by whoever raises you. It's impossible not to experience this. Everything you do is influenced by your culture, from the way you speak and eat to what you believe about the nature of human life. And, of course, when people take this stuff too seriously or get really militant about it, it can breed hate. For instance you should see my UK/Punjabi roommate's opinion on my habit of drinking iced tea in the summer! ~~~ Oh, and don't think it's any different amongst Indians in the USA. If anything it's harder to keep hold of your roots because just about everyone in America is an immigrant or the descendent of immigrants. In a couple of generations, everyone is expected to leave the traditions of the Old Country behind. Whereas at least in the UK you can really have this sense of Our Ancestral Culture.

Mar 12th, 2008, 04:11	#8
ind_pal Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: UK Posts: 20	Most Indian people I know are proud of their Indian heritage. People still have to get on with their lives day to day. You're always going to get a few people who will disown their heritage because they have been badly hurt and become angry. They will go as far to be extremely hostile to anything Indian. That's similar to like people of some neighboring countries are to India.

Mar 12th, 2008, 04:38	#9
chickpea Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 53	What, are you the cultural police or something. I think you will find as the opoponax has stated, this is not specific to the indian culture, most people don't really think about culture or history at a young age. Most people (in any country and culture) are busy trying to fit in with their peers and avoid sticking out Maybe you should ask persons of non indian origin the same questions and see what others have to say. Rasika, Holland is responsible for giving "big brother" to the world, I've never seen an episode as it never interested me, but I don't feel the need to condemn others who enjoy it.

Mar 12th, 2008, 04:52	#10
crvlvr Guru Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Hollywood Posts: 4,509	This is like fighting an uphill battle. Look at the european immigrants in the US. Most of them don't have any of the their European heritage/culture left. That seems to be the norm. What is suprising is that Indian emmigrants in South East Asia and Africa who seem to have held on to theur roots for a long time. I think it could be becuase these places have significant Indian populations who have managed to make their culure more mainstream and easier for the children to follow than in area where south asian immigrants are a small minority. Oh, BTE, being "Indian" is like saying you are "European". There in no homogenous culture or even langiuage that binds all Indians together.

Mar 13th, 2008, 21:11	#15
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 27,763	I think somebody mentioned that Jews have a religion to bind them together. Their geographic and cultural origins vary widely. There are many people who are technically Jewish, but have no interest in their faith and not much in their history.

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