Hell in Hinduism

God or the karma law is neutral and spares no one, favours no one. You can only see the very limited few years of deeds of these three in their present lifetimes. Every single being, including the avataar of God Himself comes with an expiry date stamped on his "forehead" which we cannot read. It is in our limited perception and expectation that we feel that "so and so should not die at such and such moment". If you can actually decide such a thing, you can very well stop the rotation of the sun!

Again, we do not know what they have done in their previous lives. I personally know a case where the woman concerned was able to see her previous lives' deeds and actually said that she has got off with a very light "punishment"; maybe coz of her intense bhakti which mitigated the time period. [her statement, not mine]

If you do something it happens to you in return. It is not always literal in the physical sense, but more in the mental sense. For example, X may have physically kicked Y in front of school mates and humiliated him. They meet again after 8 janmas as boss and subordinate. Now it wont be physical, but some such statement in front of all the employees which causes the same mental anguish to X. Even the audience will be the same persons who were originally there. This is a mere example. Its not "I slap you so you slap me in return". Its more like "whatever mental agitations were felt, so shall be the mental agitations in return." As we all are cosntantly evolving, we not feel the same mental agitation with the same deed. In the kicking example, if X is reborn as a very powerful Wrestler, the return kick [from an ordinary Y] he will laugh it off as a mossie bite. It wont even be noticed by him, how then will the law be fulfilled??

Extremely valid and very subtle question. If you think about it ONLY, it will bother you as "negative thoughts" mostly in this lifetime itself. No carry over. However if you think about it too often, you will make a subtle groove in your mind. This will manifest as "desire" in your next life. You may learn to handle this desire and put it aside, or you may actually carry it out.... depends....

At the subtlest level, thoughts are karma. No thoughts means no mind. No mind means no "curtain" to self knowledge. It leads to final realization of the absolute truth. Only those with "no karma" balance can realize the absolute truth and be established in it. Hence, thought = karma.

God will retire at the end of this kalpa when the Universe will return to its original unmanifest state of pure brmhan. This is a same time period as the existence of the Universe. Its called the night of God when, so to say, God sleeps. It could be some trillion trillion years or even more...

BTW, God is not a person, such that he needs sleep. Whatever you see or not see is God. All atoms and even more subtler. He or it is subtler than the subtlest and vaster than the vastest. It is a principle of pure existence, conciousness, and absolute bliss... it is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent in the real and absolute sense. This is a very loose way of putting it.... but i am saying it coz only it is an upaniShadic statement.

Which means in effect that YOU are God. Only thing, you don't actively know that you are God. We all harbour this feeling that "I am this body" coz we cannot feel beyond it. All of us collectively feel "I am this body". The "i" feeling in all is a common denominator. All these "i"s are not different "i"s but the one and the same "I", the ONLY "I". Thing is we don't know this, so long as we persist with the "body feeling".

Have tried to, but am aware of my limitations. Have only stated what I believe to be true. No offence meant and my Love to all in equal measure, whether they agree or agree to disagree

The animal gets a part of the subtler quality in human.

In exchange.....

The human gets a part of the grosser quality in the animal.

The six inner enemies [desire, lust, anger etc] have to be actively recognized and thrown out or "sacrificed" as the vedas say...

If you are actively pursuing a life where you are consciously, assiduously and perseveringly trying to throw out your animal qualities and trying to manifest human qualities....[love, generosity, compassion etc].....

Would it help you if you imbibed more of these qualities by way of food? Its like you lose 200 calories after paying 20 dollars an hour to a personal trainer... and then go ahead and binge on some black forest cake containing 2000 calories. It does not make sense if you are doing such contradictory things. But then we do such things, don't we?

Even in weight reduction or body building its the acute focus of the mind over a sustained period of time which gives discipline and constancy, which in turn brings proper and desired results. If this is so for such "gross body" purposes, how much more focus and constancy would be required for a spiritual "mind purpose"??

Avid Trekker,One last question(No More i Promise ),Does this mean that i am being mislead by all the spritual teachers like J.K. or Nisargadatta maharaj who say that Enlightenment is possible ,right here and right now.They say that it is possible for everyone in this lifetime.How does one extinguish his karmas?.can i do that only through rebirths or if i Increase the frequency of Gaps between my thoughts and dont let my mind control them ,then will the Prarabdha Karma stop and lead me closer to Enlightenment.

Thanks Avid .Your replies are very helpful as well as informative.

As long as you ask a genuine question to anyone with a genuine desire to know or to learn... called "pari prashna" in the giitaa, you will get the answer [from somewhere else], even if the person thus asked does not know it. The timing of course, depends on your intensity to know. Some people ask with view to argue or to show off or to merely thrust their point of view with a closed mind.... these q's will never yield results...

Yes, it is possible for the person who asks, in this very lifetime. Observe this little fact... how many on this Forum are asking? How many in this City? How many on this Earth? Even among bhaktas [devotess], there are many who never ask for self knowledge, but only a chance to serve... e.g. Swami Vivekananda.

Now the question comes "How really interested is the person asking this question? How intense is the desire? [Desires are all bad, but the desire to realize self is elevating] Is the desire intense enough for the person to put the "answers" into practice? How many of these miniscule percenage of "askers" are "doing" what they are supposed to be doing??

A simple example: "Majority of non vegetarians will balk when told to stick to veg food" .... if you are not willing to put up with small things like sacrificing tea coffee or non veg food, how in heaven's name will you sacrifice this mountainous impediment called "body feeling"? [the feeling that "I am this body"] Even among veg foods, one must progressively shun those not suitable for spiritual aspirants. Just as an Earthly Army goes fully prepared to fight an Earthly war [with full weapons etc] the spiritual aspirant must also be prepared with the right mental quality-weapons to fight the spiritual war.

There are dangers if the spiritual war is undertaken randomly. Example: would you give your two year old child a loaded pistol ready to fire??

various ways....

is one of the ways....

praarabdha has to be undergone.... to the very end of this life which is why even self realized sages remain alive even after they realize the self.... in turn they do us a good turn coz we benefit from their presence. They have no reason to live other than to work out praarabdha till the natural end.

The sum total of ALL your karmas is sanchita [lit: "collection"] This is compared to the full quiver of arrows that an archer has.

Intense saadhanaa results in God's Grace which renders ineffective the entire hoard of sanchita or actually burns it in this very lifetime.

Out of this "sanchita", ONE arrow is taken out and fired. This is praarabdha. This is your current lifetime. So long as the arrow is travelling mid path, the praarabdha must continue. When the arrow loses its initial velocity completely, either by piercing the target, or by falling on the ground, the "death" occurs and praarabdha ceases to operate.... on its own, without any doing.

aagaami [lit: "that which is to come"] karma is created when one does karma in this very lifetime with the mental feeling that "I am doing this karma". This is what is called the feeling of "doership", and it adds to the "body feeling" [whereas we want to subtract from it]. Aagaami can be brought up to the mental surface by intense introspection and thus "observed" and eliminated. Promises given and debts incurred to "other" bodies must be fulfilled in this very lifetime. For a number of realized souls, their disciples extinguish the debts [physical, emotional, monetary] if the sage has no money. If done with Love, it results in a very great promotion for the disciple, which cannot be had by saadhanaa alone.

Thanks be to God, Guru and Shakti, without whose prompting my fingers would not move and my nose would not inhale oxygen.

All the "good" answers come from HIM ALONE, all the "mind" answers come from the "body feeling"...

Love and Peace....

Thanks for answering my question AT - much appreciated.

What an interesting thread this is.........with a heap of knowledge for all to absorb as well.

Everything is ALIVE... everything is infinite, everything is verily GOD... from the same isha upaniShad we have ..

puurNam adaH puurNam idam... 1
puurNaat puurNam udachyate.. 2
puurNasya puurNam aadaaya... 3
puurNam eva avashiShyate.... 4

That invisible is infinite
this visible is infinite.... 1
That invisible expresses
itself as this visible...... 2
[even so]
subtracting this infinity
from That infinity.......... 3
what remains balance
is infinity indeed !!....... 4

Let us take the rik in question...

अ॒सु॒र्या॒ नाम॒ ते लो॒का अ॒न्धेन॒ तम॒साऽऽवृ॑ताः ।
नास्ते प्रेत्या॒भिग॑च्छन्ति॒ ये के चा॑त्म॒हनो॒ जना॑ ॥३॥

। अ-सुर्याः । नाम । ते । लोकाः । अन्धेन । तमसाः । आवृताः ।
। तान् । ते । प्रेत्य । अभि-गच्छन्ति । ये । के । च । आत्म-हनः । जनाः ।

The words [pada paaTha] are....

a-suryaaH naama te lokaaH andhena tamasaaH aavRtaaH ......... l
taan te pretya abhi-gachchhanti ye ke cha aatma-hanaH janaaH..ll

a-suryaaH = of aasurii or demonaic quality. Here it means such qualities that prompt one to indulge in mere sense pleasures for the very sake of sense pleasures alone.
[note: a-suuryaa means darkness, a-suryaa means aasuric. The diff is the long suu in darkness and the short su in aasuric][darkness is an inaccurate translation in your quote above coz the long uuuu has been considered instead of the short][for those who do not know samskrt, the long and short vowel sounds change the meaning completely in most words][in some cases, the short su sound in suraH indicates the sun. If so, the opposite is darkness. Here we are talking of the darkness of the mind, so the sun is a figurative sun]

naama = so named

te = those

lokaaH = lookaas [planes of existence, subtler and grosser]

andhena = with blinding

tamasaaH = laziness, sloth [spiritual][tamas is the quality of sleep and laziness in the triad of saatva rajas tamas. tamas here means spiritual laziness]

aavRtaaH = enveloped, covered

taan = those

te = they

pretya = upon death

abhi = towards [gravitate]

gachchhanti = go

ye ke cha = whomsoever and whatsoever

aatma-hanaH = conscience suppressors [hanaH literally means "killers". aatmaa cannot be killed so here we take the meaning to be "those who act against the voice of their aatmaa or conscience]

janaaH = people

Literal translation: [as per 4 line divisions]

Those planes of existence named a-suryaaH, where one is constantly buffeted by the succeeeding waves of pleasure and pain [earth too is one such lokaa where one is constantly buffeted by succeeding pleasure and pain]

blind [to the existence of aatmaa or even the ordinary teachings of aatmaa], hence enveloped in the ignorance of tamas [sensual pleasure seeking mind]

upon death, those lokaas they gravitate towards

those persons who suppress the voice of their conscience

To put in in better English perspective...

[change the order of phrases to render them understandable]

ye ke cha aatma-hanaH janaaH
andhena tamasaaH aavRtaaH
taan te pretya abhi-gachchhanti
a-suryaaH naama te lokaaH

Those who supress the voice of their conscience,

and so render themselves "blind" to teachings of aatmaa
are enveloped in the ignorance of tamas [mind & senses alone],

upon death they gravitate [by their mental propensity] towards such planes of existence indeed,

so named a-suryaaH, full of ingnorance thought waves, where one is constantly buffeted by succeeeding waves of pleasure and pain....

As far as my reading goes, the hell referred to [if any] is the constant returning to this Earth-hell itself where one keeps on going round and round in a futile search of "body" and "sense" pleasures, which will never ever give us complete satisfaction but will merely make us go more round and round, enveloping ourselves in utterly thickening darkness of denser and denser ignorance.

Huh??? Whatever gross qualities I have seen have always been found in humans.

Let me find some 'feeling' rocks and I'll prove it to you.

Just getting back to the Hindu Heaven/Hell question, here's some Theosophical thoughts on the subject from Annie Besants book "The Ancient Wisdom"
KAMALOKA/HELL?
http://www.theosophical.ca/AncientWisdom1.htm#kamaloka
DEVACHAN/HEAVEN?
http://www.theosophical.ca/AncientWisdom1.htm#devachan
KARMA!
http://www.theosophical.ca/AncientWisdom2.htm#karma
So it seems from this that the Theosophists were definitely of the opinion that Kamaloka represents the christian HELL & Devachan represents the christian HEAVEN, in fact it's almost an anagram!!!! KK

Very well explained Avid! Your explanations do touch many points of insight. I've learnt a lot from your perspectives.

Then whats the significance of having words like Jiva and Jada? You can figuratively say that everything is alive because God is everywhere. But isnt there a difference between saying God IS everything and God is Omni-present?

The way i was taught the "puurNam adaH" shloka is to recognize the 100% similarity in all forms of God.
- "That" meaning the external God.
- "This" meaning the God in us.
- Both are same. No form is weaker/stronger than the other.

Some people take Purna to be Whole and some take it as Infinity. This shloka is also said to be the mathematical definition of God.
Some also claim that this is what Buddha meant when he talked about Shunya. If you observe, both Zero and Infinity behave the same when acted upon by mathematical operations like +,-,*,/ etc.
(Ex Inifinity + Infinity = Infinity and 0 + 0 = 0). So whats Shunya to some is Purna to others.

Yes ofcourse. If you see the "pada paaTha" in the link i gave, they have the same explanation -
I guess the darkness in the translation comes from "andhena tamasa" rather than "asurya".

Most probably this verse is meant to convey meanings at various levels. The hell might refer to a state of mind or what the soul experiences after death. Each is true seperately and together. I guess thats the beauty of Sanskrit language.

praks I've got to ask you an important question.
I'm a 21 years old from germany and a friend of mine, who is as old as I am, has been on Havelock Island in january. I read in a thread that you have been near Wild Orchid and there he has been, too.
Have you seen him tere? He is 1,70 to 1,75 meters tall and has long, blond and curly hair. His name is Matthias. Sometimes he wears glasses.
Please answer me, it's really important!
Thank you, Fabi.

Fabi,Can you send a personal message to Praks? He/she may or may not check this thread. please do use the Pm to ask questions.

I hope the mods delete Fabi's as well as My post from this excellent thread.

Such questions will have a multitude of answers. One of the obstacles to understanding Hinduism is the fact that it is tremendously diverse. There are schools and schools and more of thought. So when you ask a fairly large topic question such as this, you're bound to get ridiculous amounts of replies. Villager mentality (ethnocentrism) runs amok. Personally, I would tell you there is no hell as a concept in Hinduism, just as there is no good karma or bad karma. Good and bad are western concepts juxtiposed onto Hinduism. There is just karma. There are, however, hellish states of mind we can all venture into such as anger.

Aum Namasivaya

Good and bad are not concepts in Hinduism?
Then why did Lord Krishna took incarnation?. Doesnt he says explicitly in Gita that Whenever Dharma is threatened I take incarnation to destroy Evil.

Spiritual and universal Hinduism do not believe in too much of ritualism. It does believe in meditation(self realisation) and the many ways in achieving this.One need not go to temples for the connection(the great plus point in hinduism).

By Hinduism is meant the Way of Hindus ie the actually existing society of 800 million people.
Hinduism has content much greater than philosophizing of modern "half-western" gurus who cobble together their philosophy from God-knows-where.
This philosphizing has not sustained the Hindu society, neither it is likely to do so in future. It has got very little to say regarding modern problems. just saying realize your Self again and again isnt very helpful.

The Hindu society was sustained by Saints such as Tulsidas, Kabir, Guru Nanak etc and any concept that is not expressed in vernacular is not a concept relevant to Hinduism as a existing Way of Hindus.