Fund-less UK national stranded in India

Bryan

As far as I can see this guy is not asking for anything from anyone
So why not leave him alone and let him be and stay in india ...

he seems to be happy to stay in India at no cost to either Britain or India ...
As far as I can see the only cost he has been to India is when he was arrested ...

So it was a cost brought on by the state interfering in his life

As for refugee status ...he's clearly not mad, just clearly fed up with the UK and the West and would prefer not to be repatriaited and is thus trying to find a way to stay in India ...BTW there a riding number of individuals being detained in the UK without trial ...many have been in this limbo for more than a year ...So....But that is another matter and would mroe than likely not apply to him

Anyway, Let the guy wander ...I'm quite suprised by the reactions of some on here
Others boast of doing it in the 1960s with no money!!! ans we applaud them

How times have changed ...He is arrested ...he is called a madman a disgrace etc etc etc...

Seems to me he challenges our illusion of freedom perhaps...or perhaps not

More power to him

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(As come it will for a' that),
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For a' that, an a' that,
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beach

He should be left alone if he is not having any unlawful (criminal) intentions. Let him do whatever he feels. Let him roam in india or go back to home...leave it to him.

But govermnents work as per rules.That is how it is. But they can keep their eyes half closed. This is how 'illegal' things are allowed by governments all over the world, if they want to allow it.

After all India is a country with 10 million 'illegal' imigrants. It's not possible to deport all these people to from wherever they have come from. They just melt into the society. That is how it is. Sky is not going to fall if a few more people overstay for whatever reason.

a new on a related topic appeared in 'The Hindu' daily
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/m...2201170400.htm

__________________
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Shiver me Timbers

Agreed.

As for Steven's story, it's amazing the things we DON'T know about each other.

There's a Gang Starr lyric, appropriate in this case I think, goes:

"Actions face reactions, don't be quick to judge,
You may not know the hardships people don't speak of"

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chappal

Steven, how sad a story. I really wish you the best in coping with your experiences. I'm less sure that it would have been better for you had the police let you stay on the street, but you didn't really comment on that.

Beach, aren't refugees and illegal immigrants who come for economic reasons quite a bit different in their lifestyles from tourists who overstay their visas without funds? Any segment of society may contain some criminals, but some conditions are more prone to criminality than others. Surely law enforcement is not only about punishing criminals but also about preventing crime.

What do you think would happen if foreign tourists are allowed to stay homeless? What would happen to them? And how would it effect society? Good people do get caught up in bad actions when they don't have the social resources to get out of those situations.

On the flip side, I appreciate the point about compassion; surely, affluence & comfort ("that couldn't happen to me") do bad things to nice people's compassion too. I see Steven's point about imprisonment; it isn't a constructive solution, and it is a destructive one when prisons are badly run.

Perhaps the problem comes from handling all kinds of offenses with similiar procedures, (e.g., handling non-violent offenses in a similar way to violent offenses). The article Beach posted mentions a more constructive approach by the French embasassy, which added psychologists to their staff in India because of the number of aimless tourists who eventually to wind up needing assistance.

For the first time, I think I understand why the Indian tourism application asks for an address you are visiting. Their risks for foreigners with local connections are very different than their risks for those without, who can wind up homeless and without social or emotional support.

Yetijuice

I first went to Goa for Christmas 1983. My first night in Goa was spent at Bob's Inn and Bar in Candolim, just south of Calangute. Bob complained about the early morning ruckus made by the Catholic church next door on Easter Sunday and Christmas. I asked Bob about the late night/early morning noise at his bar every night of the year. Bob said "That's different. We make so much noise nobody could fall asleep. We never wake people up, but the church does."

One of the irregulars at Bob's Inn and Bar was Jungli Barry. Jungli Barry was a Scotchman. He visited India, got to the beaches of Goa, and decided that he would NEVER go back to Scotland again.

When Jungli Barry's passport expired he simply stayed on in India. Jungli Barry had one stretch of 20 consecutive years in India. In 1985 he visited London for a couple months. True to his word, Jungli Barry did not go back to Scotland.

If Jungli Barry had 50 rupees in his pocket he considered himself a "rupees millionaire." Jungli Barry made a living for himself telling stories in beachfront bars in exchange for tourist-bought beers. Jungli Barry also sold hash oil on the side.

The day before Christmas I smoked a cigarette with hash oil on it with Jungli Barry. We then strolled north along the beach from Candolim to Calangute to Baga. At one point Barry distracted me by pointing out the artist paintings on the bows of fishing boats that were pulled up onto the beach sand above the high tide line. While I was looking at the fishing boats two fisherman quietly put two cobra snakes in the surfline in front of us. Barry and I continued walking down the beach. Four feet before we reached the cobras Barry threw his arm out in front of me and shouted "Snakes!" I jumped backwards four feet and my blood pressure doubled. The next wave washed up and the snakes swam in the surf.

Two days later my friend Magic Michael and I took magic mushrooms an hour before sunset at Vagator Beach. I did yoga on the beach waiting for the mushrooms to kick in. We watched the sunset and enjoyed the ocean horizon and sky until it got dark. Then we wandered in the surf below the cliffs of Fort Chaporra. The weather was warm and dry. There were rock outcrops in the surf that were 10 feet high. That got me to thinking about deserts and snakes. I told myself don't worry about snakes. When is the last time you saw snakes swimming in the ocean? "Two days ago." I convinced myself that had been a practical joke and remained in the water. Waves were breaking from three directions around me. There were phosphorescent plankton in the water. When a wave broke there appeared to be thousands of stars in the ocean. We walked back to Vagator and had a fine seafood dinner at Lobo's restaurant.

Over Christmas 1995 my family and I returned to Goa. We stayed in Arambol for 5 weeks. On 26 December 1995 I visited Bob's Inn and Bar and had a last beer with Jungli Barry. He had just returned from Palolim. Two weeks later I returned to Bob's Inn and Bar and learned that Jungli Barry had died on 3 January 1996. I had a beer with Barry's friends and looked at photos of his cremation. Not to worry about dying in India. Nobody gets out of here alive.

Over 99% of Jungli Barry's last 30 years on earth were spent in India. Most of that time was spent in Goa. Barry also explored the coast in Maharashtra and Karnataka states. The west coast of India was Barry's haunting grounds. I am writing about Jungli Barry to let others know that it is quite possible to overstay your visa in India without the sky falling on you.

Baldy

[quote=passingby]
Putting people in prisons for not having identity papers on them is not fair. The western world is not doing the same to the immigrants who try to come illegaly in the country. so why are Asian countries or other poor countries doing it? QUOTE]

Australia locks up illegal immigrants and has done so for years. They may be detained for over 3 years in a desert prison before being deported.

crvlvr

I think this is done as a deterrent. May be a lot of "tourists" suddenly find some money to buy their passage home after a few days in jail?

Currently, there are more 1,000 people jailed in the US as suspected terrorists! And these people turned themselves in voluntarily trying to help the US govt find the terrorists.

One does not see this happen on the streets of India. Unlike how immigrants might be treated in certain parts of western countries.

This is already being done in the western world. However, our media does not carry it. Who in the western world really cares if some poor immigrant is in jail? It does not sell the evening news.

these are immigrants who have entered the country legally and have demonstrated the "traits" (either financial or educational) that the Canadian govt feels are needed in Canada.

And australian streets are heaven compared to India's hellish streets..

Everything is relative.. 50% of the world's population live on less than $2/day -- most of them are in India. Now, one really cannot expect to have cushy jails in such a poor country?

crvlvr

may be it was because they were from Europe and not an "eastern country"

Some excerpts from the article:


"According to Sergio Manchi [Minister of Immigration] "Our citizenship is not just a right. It is a privilege..." This privilege is available to people who can pay the $975.00 right of landing fee and a $500.00 processing fee, speak English or French and invest financially. The unfortunate reality is that the immigration strategy of the Canadian government is base on economic and cultural discrimination which disproportionately affects people of non-European decent"

"According to Immigration Operations- Control & Intelligence, 2,379 removals were carried out in 1989. By 1993 this had increased to 8,296, attributed to a general rise in overall immigration. 1200 of those deported in 1993 where labelled criminals. Two years later, total immigration to Canada was brought back down to the immigration levels of 1989. However, deportation levels in 1995 were double the 1989 figure. The deportation of 'criminals' increased to 1,756 or 36.6% of all deportations."

"Refugees and immigrants can be arrested or detained without a criminal charge and held indefinitely for any reason or no reason, anytime and anywhere once they arrive in Canada until they are granted citizenship"

"In the majority of these cases, the people have no criminal record and are not a threat to Canada or Canadians. Refugees and immigrants are being arbitrarily detained in violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights of Freedom.. "

steven_ber

Regarding my time in the Thai police station, I have no complaints, I knew what I was doing and I knew the consequences.

I was lucky; I had one very big friend with me at the time - DEPRESSION.

Depression got me into the mess I was in, and it can ruin the good things in life, but when you are feeling low, nothing can make you feel worse, had I been a happy person when I entered that cell, I believe the experience would have had a long term damaging effect.

I think a Thai Prison (I've heard Indian prisons are worse) will break many a better man than me, I saw it in the cells, it was my first experience of a prison, the cells were exactly what I thought a prison would be like, many a European who had spent time in a European prison were devastated by the conditions in the cells.

I'm more or less over that period of my life now and just put it all down to experience.

When I was deported the authorities wouldn't give me my passport, I had to wait till we were out of Thai airspace, they eventually handed me my passport when we were flying over Calcutta, I asked if I could borrow a parachute, but they never understood.

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When I got back to England I done a post on the Lonely Planet's Thailand branch, I was trying to explain that the info in the Lonely Planet guidebook was incorrect, I was slaughtered on the site, lots of regulars were saying that I must have done something else to end up in prison and that nobody was jailed for overstaying their visa.

The guidebook tells you that 'for everyday you overstay, you will be fined 200 Baht, up to a maximum of 20,000 Baht', this information is true, however, it is illegal to overstay your visa, if you turn up at the airport you can pay the fine, BUT, and a big BUT, if you are asked by the police to show your passport (it is illegal not to carry a Passport in Thailand) and they notice your visa has expired, you will be arrested, you will then be taken to court at the earliest opportunity, you will be fined 2,000 Baht (YES only 2000), even if you pay you will be taken back to the police station and detained until there is transport to the Immigration Detention Centre in Bangkok (you can wait for a week or more), there you will stay for a minimum one week and then you will be deported, very large bribes to the police and the immigration officials can speed things up, but nothing can prevent deportation.

There are many reasons why the police ask to see your passport, mostly towards the end of the month when their wages are running out, they do drug raids in clubs (and amazingly everyone has drugs in their possession), they pull most foreign people up (that pass them) for 'motoring offences' (most expats have 200 Baht in their top pocket for a quick bribe).

I sent an E-mail to lonely planet explaining how misleading their info was, I got one back saying that they would change the information they give in their next issue, however, they never changed a thing.

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chappal

It sounds like the LP folks did not get the distinction in treatment between the police discovering the overstay and the it being discovered at the airport. Probably another case of not really caring because most think "I'd never be in a situation where I'd overstay or the police would ask for my visa." I think for the most part people are not very capable of imagining misfortune. When we are happy, it is hard to imagine things being different. I guess this is part of how we cope and go on with life, by attaching more signficance to the happy experiences/thoughs than the bad ones.

What do you think should happen to people who are arrested or hand themselves in for visa overstay?

steven_ber

I think they should go to prison until the situation is sorted out.

People should have respect for laws in whatever country they travel in.

We go to Asia because it is different to Europe/Aus/North America, we can't then complain if the prison system is also different.

crvlvr

Whats is sad that the legal system in 3rd world countries are extremely slow. So whatever you do, don't get caught. Even if you are not guilty, it could be months or years before you get your day in court. Its not like foreigners are discriminated against and purposely held for a long time, this happens to Indians too (unless you use influence or payola). I saw a great program on prisoner development program (they were using meditation techniques) in the Tihar jail, and there were a number of foreigners (in mostly for drug charges) that had been waiting years for their court hearing.
And jails are not pleasant. Should they be?

chappal

Well, we have to make a distinction between unpleasant and abusive. It seems that all around the world, including the US, jail administration is set up to degrade jailees' dignity. I don't think this is a good thing for them or for society. Can you imagine these prisoners' behavior when they are released from jail? Violence begets more violence (perhaps unless you are utterly despondent and detached). But since that violence is typically contained to some "neighborhoods" and segments of society, I guess most of us are unaffected by it except in rare and shocking cases.
We also have to make a distinction between jailing for punishment and rectification. The argument for punishment is that it serves as a deterrent to future crime and an example to others. But if we intend to readmit this person in to society we have got to think about how we can punish this person in a way which gives him the opportunity to rectify his wrongs and rehabilitate himself. If we cannot afford this, then at the very least we can avoid punishments which degrade criminals further, reinforce or teach bad behavior, and damage their mental health.
Of course, society has less interest in rehabiltation in the case of deportees, but if the overall system is not so degrading, foreigners are also more likely to be better treated. I agree with your argument against Passingby's expectation that Thailand can achieve Canada's levels of services for immigrants. The West has vastly more resources and responsibility to the rest of the world, especially the US, but also the more quiet Canadians -- we have all benefited from the instability and "deals" in those countries. Canada treats immigrants and asylum seekers better than most of us, but that is no reason to expect Thais to have the resources to similarly monitor and reform their institutions. They have so many other problems of equal magnitude for which they also don't have resources. Institutional reform is not merely a matter of good-will and attitude. My point above, is also that it is not just a matter of kindness or reciprocity -- it is in Canada's interests to not abuse anyone who is going to be readmitted into society.

chappal

So you are not arguing against jailing him, but rather suggesting compassion and reform of jails? How do they sort it out if he refuses to go back and no-one will pay for the ticket?

steven_ber

I may have been misunderstood.

I have not suggested reform of jails, I also think Mr Marshal should stay in the police station until someone pays for his fare home.

Once the British embassy realise that nobody will pay his fare home (a few months or more), they will pay for his ticket, then keep his passport until he pays back the money.

Once he has a plane ticket he will be deported, whether he likes it or not.

I posted my information just to show that people can find themselves in an unbelievable position, one that only a few years earlier would have seemed unimaginable.

None of us know why Mr Marshal is feeling this way, so we can't judge.

An English man was brought into the police station in Thailand, he maybe had some small mental health problems, but mostly he was frightened, he had went for his plane home, he was nervous about flying and about not being able to smoke cigarettes on the plane.

He was pacing up and down and smoking whilst waiting for the plane, he had no luggage, he had overstayed his visa by one day (one day is allowed), it was not long after 9/11 and the shoe bomber, the staff refused to let him fly.

This pushed him into the second day of overstay, he was sent to the police station, when the Thai prisoners tried to rob him, he fought back, that was not wise, he was regularly beaten and made to sleep in urine, it got so bad that we got the British embassy visitor to get him out, knowing that the only other place for him was a hospital for the mentally ill.

I don't know what happened to him after that, but I know he would not be alive today if he'd have stayed in the police station for a few more days.