Christian Charities

DoDi

I've just returned from a trip to Kerala and Tamil Nadu.

I stayed for a while in Muttom, which is one of the fishing villages that was devastated by the tsunami. I also visited other towns along the coast and saw first hand what is going on there.

People who claim that the Catholics are only helping Catholics, or that there are 'forced conversions', or that aid is being distributed with caveats... well those people are talking through thier hat and don't know what is going on.

In Muttom, for example, it's the Catholic network of priests, seminarians, and volunteers from surrounding parishes who have stepped in to do the work and to advocate for the victims where the government has failed to respond.

When I visited the relief camp the people there swarmed around my host (a Catholic seminiarian who is a local who himself lost family members in the disaster, and who has taken time off from his studies to co-ordinate relief and reconstruction activities in Muttom). It was clear to me by the people who came up to tell him thier problems, and by the people who constantly stopped us as we went around the area to tell him thier problems, that it was this Catholic seminarian and his friends... some priests and parish members... who were the ones getting aid to these people.

This is not unusual in small poor towns that have been pretty much forgotten by the Indian government. The local churches step in to fill the void and to provide the safety net needed, as well as to resolve local problems... which I also observed in another Tamil Nadu town... where police who don't care step in and just arrest anyone walking around, innocent or not, in order to say on paper that a disorder or local situation has been addressed. So I am telling you that yes... the Catholic church plays this community role, they are the community leaders when it comes down to discussing reality.

I can also tell you that they never discriminated or engaged in 'forced conversion'. This is a lie made up by religious extremists... extremists who have even attacked MOC nuns delivering food to poor people in Kerala, sending some to the hospital including the local MOC mother superior. The hooligans are no different than thugs and the politicians who whip them up with lies about 'forced conversions' are no better.

Where were they when the Indian government wanted to put up relief camps with no floors, or give a fraction of the cost of replacing a home or a catamaran and then claim it has done it's job?

Its these Catholic community leaders who are raising the funds, doing the co-ordination, advocating to agencies, and speaking out about the needs of the people that can only be known by those who are actually there working with the people. They are the ones who purchase clean electric grinders for people in the camps because they find out by eating with the people that the food can't be chewed normally due to the sand in it. They are the ones who begin an orphanage away from the camps (which are cheaply built government hell holes and full of people suffering measles and heat related diseases) so that the children who've lost parents can have a peaceful place to try to regain thier footing in life and continue thier interrupted studies. They are the ones who are buying logs and employing master boat builders to get the men back to work on the sea before they fall into hopelessness and despair and alcholism.

And they don't ask anyone thier religion (unlike some of the posters here). And anyone who claims they do is a liar.

And that's the truth.

DoDi

Sorry for the strong language in my previous post... but this thread really angered me.

crvlvr

Have we forgotten that the British ruled India? In 1835, Thomas Macaulay articulated the goals of British colonial imperialism most succinctly: "We must do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern, a class of persons Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, words and intellect." As the architect of Colonial Britain's Educational Policy in India, Thomas Macaulay was to set the tone for what educated Indians were going to learn about themselves, their civilization, and their view of Britain and the world around them.

Who was Thomas Macaulay? From Wikipedia, " Serving on the Supreme Council of India between 1834 and 1838 Macaulay was instrumental in creating the foundations of bilingual colonial India, by convincing the council and parliament to close schools and colleges teaching in Sanskrit or Arabic and instead to teach English to "natives" and provide education in English only."

That should explain why most of the universtities in India are christian. You see, the environment for the establishment of indegeneous universities in India did not exist until independence.

Merchant, my point is that in the "non-raj" states like Hyderabad education was promoted by the local monarch. In the other (raj) parts of India ruled by the british, indians were not allowed to open institutions, and christian universities that were run by the missionaries flourished under the watchful eye of British rule -- ensuring that the "white is right" philosophy was disseminated. This could be one of the reasons why Indians resent missionaries.

I don't want to make this is a discussion on british rule in India. But there is connection between it and why christian institutions in India were so successful.

edwardseco

My spouse went through a "Christian" school which is now closed because of seperatist activity. She actually wanted to become a nun just like the teachers as long as she didn't have to convert. I think a few stray cases are exagerated by fundamentalists that secretly (and sometimes openly) long to keep lower castes "in their place". After all, whose business is it if they did convert anyway? But, when a Brahmin is converted that really hits the fan in a different way. In the rural areas it is very difficult to operate aid programs and overtly evangelize. I saw one "Christian" charity, World Vision operate and there was no evangelical effort what so ever..

DoDi

I actually built a school in Kerala. Really... I was kind of proud of it. It replaced one that was over 100 years old and had to be destroyed since it was no longer a safe structure.

The school is run by the local Catholic parish. It's in a (very) low income fishing village in Kerala. The students are mainly Catholic, as is the local population is Catholic, but Hindu children also attend.

Nobody trys to convert the Hindu students.

If it wasn't for the local Catholic priest this school would have ceased to exist.

Any objections? Should I not have donated the funds? Believe me it cost me a lot of money... I'll be working and saving to pay for this school for another 2 years. But I'm a Catholic, so of course my efforts are suspect.

Perhaps I should be taken out an beaten, or at least have my reputation maligned, since this is how some Indians like to say thank you.

temp

Agree with your posts, rytha. Many Christian organizations these days operate this way these days, unfortunately. Convert and you get food, clothes, scholarships, even claims to religious asylum in the West. Lots of students I know converted just to avail of educational aid. Is this true conversion? I've lost all faith in so-called dogooders working under the "Christian Charity" banner. I wish they'd take their "charity" elsewhere, maybe the Middle East which is in dire need.

The Keralese Christians who've followed this religion for 2000 years have lived in peace and have never been persecuted themselves either. It's this new and virulent breed of US-funded Christian evangelist missionaries that's arriving and evangelizing poor locals for bare essentials, teaching intolerance for indigenous so-called "heathen" traditions and festivals that is creating all the trouble. They are creating alienation and division in this spiritual and ancient land.

India would lose its indigenous cultural ethos and spirituality if Indians continue to be fraudulently converted to Christianity in this manner. It would become another begging bowl Christian country (like so many in Africa) following the "leadership" of Rome.

Like rytha, I've said what I had to say. I'm done with this thread.

DoDi

Can you give one verifiable documented case of 'forced conversion' by a Catholic charity? Just one?

DoDi

Don't go away. Unless you are afraid you can't back up your claims?

As for who is virulent and trying to 'force' thier religious views on others in Kerala... read this editorial from The Hindu. It points out that its the extremists of the BJP and other communalist right wing groups who are attacking the peaceful co-existance that Kerala Christians and Hindus have enjoyed for 2000 years and who are espousing the same false claims of 'forced conversion' which are lies made up to malign Catholic educational and charitable organizations and that some in this thread have repeated.

Here's the editorial:
Communal Thuggary in Kerala

temp

There's a reason Catholic charity is a dirty word in India today, when it hasn't been for hundreds of years, and that's because of the recent upsurge in fraudulent conversion.

Yes, I can post articles and editorials too, but I don't want to engage in an article-posting match with you, better things to do than search for them. If you want, read up on the Southern Baptists or the Pentecostals and their Indian shenanigans, or simply google for Christian conversion in India, or go to http://www.christianaggression.org. Even Keralese Christians agree these people are a problem, and here you are in denial.

Also, it's common knowledge in Indian schools/colleges that you can avail of certain benefits if you convert, not otherwise. I know because friends of mine did. They desperately needed aid, and were willing to become Christians to get it. I personally know of families that were told to convert if they wanted to avail of benefits that allowed them to emigrate to the US.

You may stick your head in the sand, but this anti-Christian sentiment is grassroots, and there's a reason for it. Just a couple of days back, the new pope said things about Hinduism & Buddhism. Whose consumption was that for? The subversion isn't quite the Goan Inquisition, but much more insidious these days.

Yes, you may call me a liar, and that won't change a thing. Truth stands on its own. We'd all be most grateful if you'd please pick some other country to convert. Saudi Arabia perhaps? "Christian charities" there are strangely missing. Thank you.

crvlvr

Since you asked:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2356621.stm

Why would Christian schools in India protest if the law only banned "forced conversion" which is defined as, "... religious conversions done by allurement, force, threat or the offer of gifts or other concessions".

This does not prove anything against the catholic church. I agree, the catholic church has spoken out against forced conversion. But what really goes on the field could be different. (The US catholic priests molesting kids in the US was not supported by the Vatican, but it happened).

Christianity is now fragmented. Most people in India don't know the difference between Catholics, evangelicals etc. A christian is a christian to them. So even if the catholics have been "fair" in their conversion, the aggressive activites of another group could result in a revolt aginst all christian groups.

Also, do keep in mind, Hinduism does not believe in conversion. So for every hindu "lost" to christianity, the hindu do not have a way to convert one back. Hence, they want to pass laws etc. to make conversion more difficult.

DoDi

Hi temp,

Seriously, thank you for returning. I don't agree with you, but I do appreciate that you answered.

The only problem I have is that you didn't answer my question which was this:

You mention the Penticostals and Southern Baptists... haha. Well yes, they are quite vocal and are on a mission to convert others. So what? But in any case they are beside the point... since they are not Catholic and I am asking specifically about the claim being made in this thread that Catholic charitable organizations engage in a policy of 'forced conversions' or discriminate based on religion when giving aid to others.

This is just not done by Catholic charitable organizations anywhere, and certainly not in India.

If you want to insist that they do then please give me a specific example, just one, of a Catholic hospital, clinic, school, relief organization, food distribution program, etc. that has refused aid to a non-Catholic or insisted that they convert to Catholicism to recieve service.

I repeat... just one specific example.

Thank You

DoDi

And thank you too crvlvr for answering.

Given that you didn't give an example then I will take your answer as meaning that you have none.

Funny that an issue that has caused mobs to attack Catholic nuns and IndiaMike members to post virulent attacks against Catholic charities is an issue for which not a single example exists. I would have imagined that such a serious problem would engender many many examples of Catholic charitable abuse.

Regarding the law about 'forced conversion'... that is just the point. Just because Hindus do not believe in conversion, then why do other non-Hindus have to submit to a law about it? Isn't that a case of Hindus forcing thier beliefs on others?

And Catholics in India oppose that law because it imposes restrictions, such as having to have official signatures and depositions from local priests, etc. entered into government records. As you know there is a second related issue and that is that if a person who is Dalit converts or is not designated Hindu in thier official records then they loose any affirmative benefits due to them for the discrimination and unfair treatment they suffered under the caste system, even though it makes no difference to the amount of oppression they suffer that they are not Hindu. In fact Christians are considered a backward caste and have suffered historical oppression.

So opposition to that law is for two very understandable reasons, and not because Catholics want to force Catholicism on anyone.

crvlvr

Dodi,

I commend you on your charitable work in India.

It will be impossible to give even one example of proven "forced" conversion. Why? 1. One the laws against it were passed only recently and 2. court cases in India takes decades. So, it is only after a court passes a judgement, can anyone provide a concrete example. I doubt if anyone is willing to wait that long.

DoDi

Thanks crvlvr... I didn't need a proven court case... just an example with some specifics, like the name of the Catholic school, hospital, food program, etc. that didn't give aid to a non-Catholic. You know, some details about an incident...just one... that someone here in this thread knows of and is basing thier assertions and dislike of Catholic charitable organitions on.

Not official, just specific... a personal experiance or something from a reputable news source.

I can only conclude so far that there is none, and so I ask you and the others to reconsider your opinion on this issue... since I don't think it is based on the facts.

temp

Historical oppression of Christians is a propaganda bogey for missionaries. Christians have been treated quite equally throughout Indian history, their educational institutions held in high regard, Keralese Christians have been peaceful coexisters with Hindus. In fact, it was the Portuguese Catholics with their Inquisition who brought the idea of believers and non-believers, and non-believers needing to be punished till they acceded.

I am dead against Christian missionaries in India. Countries like China and Saudi Arabia serve as a good example of how to protect indigenous beliefs, and I hope India follows suit to protect us from these vultures.

Dodi, why pick on a soft target like India with its illiterate people who won't know what they're doing when converting? Why don't you find some other place to do your "charity" work? Don't tell me your own backyard couldn't do without help? There are loads of Christian countries in Africa and Latin America that need charity, unless your charity is just a means take advantage of need to convert. Or a challenging mission like the Middle East. Please leave India alone.

How someone can be so insensitive to people, wanting to deprive them of their own indigenous traditions & beliefs is beyond me, but then I have very little experience interacting with missionaries. I do think Eastern thought and its carriers are worth protecting from unscrupulous subversion to Rome just because of temporary economic conditions. I'm getting a good education here. What is it you believe happens to people when they choose to suspend their thought process to believe in a suspect book changed throughout history and its words? Eastern traditions don't impose a set of beliefs, they ask you to look within yourself to experience the truth. Why are you so bent upon conversion?