can India save it's working children?

Sama · Jan 4th, 2009, 23:57

"Dinnertime finds the famous Haldiram's restaurant in south Delhi noisy and crowded. The larger tables are taken up by affluent extended families, the very picture of upwardly mobile urban India — well-dressed grandparents, several stylish young couples, and a multitude of happy and excited children. On smaller tables nearby are the ayahs (child-minders), looking heartbreakingly out of place, not eating and waiting to be called on to deal with the kids when they get out of hand. More often than not, the ayahs are themselves children, barely in their pre-teens. Each makes less money each month than the family whose children she cares for will spend on dinner that night. She will never go to school, never acquire any skills that could get her any other form of employment when she's older, and will spend her life eating leftovers and wearing hand-me-downs.

Employment of children in such occupations is not only heartbreaking; it is also illegal...."

Can India Save It's Working Children?

Time Magazine article, with links to other India articles

Haylo · Jan 5th, 2009, 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sama

Employment of children in such occupations is not only heartbreaking; it is also illegal...."

I don't object to children working some hours in a developing country, after all in the school holidays and on weekends I worked hard on the farm myself since I was twelve.

What I really object to is that these kids are not recieving schooling, they are working long hours and have no chance of bettering themselves in later life.

fsg · Jan 5th, 2009, 15:16

This is very complicated question, and deserves not to be answered by western values.

Across the street where we spend some time in India is a 2 wheeler workshop.

Dad who worked as a silk weaver in Kanchi was disabled in his legs and could no longer work the loom.

No 1 son was taken out of school at 7 to be apprenticed to a 2 wheeler mechanic. He was treated unkindly, if he made a mistake he got a clout, but learnt well.

No 3 son was likewise taken from school at the same age, and taught by his big brother, again getting more than a clip about his ears for mistakes.

They run a very successful business, with clients turning up at 7.30 am. No 3 does all the jobs No 1 can do and even now Dad can turn his hand to simple jobs.

They have knocked down their old house and a building anew, dust is everywhere.

They are not at all dumb, stupid, but very shrewd, and know what their market is, and have profited by it well.

No size fits all in the employment of child labour in India.

I can only tell as I see it

livinhimalayas · Jan 5th, 2009, 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by fsg

This is very complicated question, and deserves not to be answered by western values.

Across the street where we spend some time in India is a 2 wheeler workshop.

Dad who worked as a silk weaver in Kanchi was disabled in his legs and could no longer work the loom.

No 1 son was taken out of school at 7 to be apprenticed to a 2 wheeler mechanic. He was treated unkindly, if he made a mistake he got a clout, but learnt well.

No 3 son was likewise taken from school at the same age, and taught by his big brother, again getting more than a clip about his ears for mistakes.

They run a very successful business, with clients turning up at 7.30 am. No 3 does all the jobs No 1 can do and even now Dad can turn his hand to simple jobs.

They have knocked down their old house and a building anew, dust is everywhere.

They are not at all dumb, stupid, but very shrewd, and know what their market is, and have profited by it well.

No size fits all in the employment of child labour in India.

I can only tell as I see it

Great example that one, I personally do not like to employ little lids to work for me, but have seen scenes like the one described in the OP. It has always disgusted me and this specially so when the ayah is asked to feed the kid while she sits there hungry.
That said, the family needs every penny they can earn to live and even if the child is paid a pittance and works long hours, she still gets fed, paid and sometimes even gets clothes, which means a lot to the family. That is one mouth less to feed and one hand more to earn.
The sensibility of the people who employ the children is what should be questioned. The children are victims of their circumstances while the employers are the exploiters.

steven_ber · Jan 8th, 2009, 12:17

The middle classes (and above) are too comfortable with child labour, it's not their children, so they don't give a shit, and as long as they continue to save money because of child labour, they'll never be interested in trying to put an end to it.

Politicians will continue to make pre-election primises, but nothing will ever be done.

What westerners need to realise is there's a group of people called Dalits, these people are considered to be 'sub-human' by higher castes, and it's the children of Dalits who make up the bulk of the child labour market.

So we're not talking about 'human' children, only Dalit children.

Try watching the way people speak to these children in restaurants, bars and tea stalls, it's sickening.

If the way a country treats it's children is any indicater of advancement, India will be a 'third world' country for many more generations.

just_an_old_boy · Jan 8th, 2009, 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sama

"Dinnertime finds the famous Haldiram's restaurant in south Delhi noisy and crowded. The larger tables are taken up by affluent extended families, the very picture of upwardly mobile urban India — well-dressed grandparents, several stylish young couples, and a multitude of happy and excited children. On smaller tables nearby are the ayahs (child-minders), looking heartbreakingly out of place, not eating and waiting to be called on to deal with the kids when they get out of hand. More often than not, the ayahs are themselves children, barely in their pre-teens. Each makes less money each month than the family whose children she cares for will spend on dinner that night. She will never go to school, never acquire any skills that could get her any other form of employment when she's older, and will spend her life eating leftovers and wearing hand-me-downs.

Employment of children in such occupations is not only heartbreaking; it is also illegal...."

Can India Save It's Working Children?

Time Magazine article, with links to other India articles

Quote:

Originally Posted by fsg

This is very complicated question, and deserves not to be answered by western values.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Agree with fsg on this.

Working children per se is not the problem, exploitation is. Non-existant wages, inhuman working conditions and upper / middle class fuedal mentality is the problem.

When we were kids we used to do all kind of work, our family never had a domestic helper.

I wash my car and tend my lawn. But if a kid wishes to offer his help to tide over his financial situation, I'll pay him fairly. He'll have his cup of tea and if hour of the day demand will also have a working meal.

All to do with family values, these things I learned from the way I saw my parents / grandparents treating all sort of working people...masons, carpenters, sharecroppers (rural/ancestral home), painters etc.

Is it too difficult to be a human being?

For instance, a couple of years ago when I was getting an ADSL connection, a couple of field technicians turned up. A freezing January day with thick fog made their assignment a hell. I proposed that they help themselves with a cup of tea before starting off with the cabling and if it takes too long they might step in the drawing room anytime to get some respite from the freezing cold outside.

Guess what, the guys did an outstanding job, they insisted that I keep a lot of spare cable, splitters from their kit. They handed me modem+router set instead of a regular modem so that I may not bother buying anything extra if I wire up my laptop.

Child labour is not a problem, moral degeneration of Indian society at large is the problem.

capt_mahajan · Jan 8th, 2009, 14:52

Quote:

What westerners need to realise is there's a group of people called Dalits, these people are considered to be 'sub-human' by higher castes, and it's the children of Dalits who make up the bulk of the child labour market.

Not really true. The bulk of children come from poor families, obviously. Their caste may sometimes have something to do with it, but often it doesn't. Poverty does.

Quote:

Child labour is not a problem, moral degeneration of Indian society at large is the problem.

I would say both are, though I agree with the 'western values' thing said earlier. MD may well be a bigger problem.

Moral degeneration is our birthright, apparently

Nick-H · Jan 8th, 2009, 15:56

Quote:

So we're not talking about 'human' children, only Dalit children.

No, Steven, that is not true at all.

In fact, the very opposite might be the case: "caste Hindus" might well refuse to be served, or even have their tables cleaned, by Dalits. Go to an orthodox Chennai Brahmin wedding, for instance, and you will find the food being cooked and served by ...Brahmins --- they would not have it any other way. The restaurant I used to go to near to the guest house that I stayed in served Brahmin-diet food cooked by Brahmin kitchen staff.

The caste issue is a red herring to this topic.

fsg · Jan 8th, 2009, 16:28

Quite right Nick re Bramin and cooking, if its a a Bramin function its BRAMIN cooks.

To broaden this discussion further.......... how long is a piece of string??????????????

Abuse is just not relevant to children.

I was in a S indian town famous for its hospital when I saw a'family' of albinos. Mum? Dad?and 2 babes. One babe was being bottle fed.

Never in all my travelling in India have I seen a child on the street being bottle fed, its always a discreet breast.

They had a begging bowl in front and people were throwing in 20/- notes. I have never seen such largesse before.

I watched from some distance and discreetly in the background was their minder who would cream off the money and move them on to another town.

If I am wrong please correct but a family of albilnos must be a chance in a billion, so they must have been gathered together, or bought from their families for the purpose of begging.

In where I live some of the time there is a big festival, and twice I have seen a troup of blind beggars, young men, coming along the street, arms stretched holding on the the one in front, chanting songs.

In front is again the minders collecting the money. Im afraid I was so angry I shouted at the minders and at least the had the grace to look sheepish, and quickly went on.

Re Dalits there are more and more opportunities in jobs for BC OBC and other communities.

If you read the jobs appointments in the , say Hindu, jobs are allocated to the various communities by number for each community, higher caste getting proportionallly less, lower more

Whether of course this actually happens is another matter.

The medical students, high caste, called the Creamy Layer, in Delhi are often up in arms because their status is being undermined by an influx of less high born.

I doubt if Indian will ever get rid of the caste system, but hopefully it will change.

steven_ber · Jan 11th, 2009, 15:52

My earlier post was made only minutes after reading yet another disgusting newspaper article, so my words were not well thought out.

I was refering to 'caste crimes', when a member of one caste commits a crime against a member of another cast (a lower caste normally), because they don't approve of what the lower caste person is doing. (there are many more reasons used as well)

The story I'd just read was sadly typical.

A woman was abused by a higher caste man, she then went to file a complaint with the police, so the higher caste man and his friends beat the woman, then took her 3 month old baby from her arms and beat the baby to death.

Her 'crime'......

Lets play a guessing game, those who known the answer should wait to see what others guess.

Did the woman....

1, hand the man some money with her left hand.

2, refuse to give the man some bangles for free.

3, wore her slippers as she walk to the well to collect water.

4, refuse to step out of the way so the man could pass.

One of the above was crime enough to cost the woman her childs life, can you guess?

Jan 4th, 2009, 23:57	#1
Sama a pain in the asana Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: the India inside my heart Posts: 6,421	can India save it's working children? "Dinnertime finds the famous Haldiram's restaurant in south Delhi noisy and crowded. The larger tables are taken up by affluent extended families, the very picture of upwardly mobile urban India — well-dressed grandparents, several stylish young couples, and a multitude of happy and excited children. On smaller tables nearby are the ayahs (child-minders), looking heartbreakingly out of place, not eating and waiting to be called on to deal with the kids when they get out of hand. More often than not, the ayahs are themselves children, barely in their pre-teens. Each makes less money each month than the family whose children she cares for will spend on dinner that night. She will never go to school, never acquire any skills that could get her any other form of employment when she's older, and will spend her life eating leftovers and wearing hand-me-downs. Employment of children in such occupations is not only heartbreaking; it is also illegal...." Can India Save It's Working Children? Time Magazine article, with links to other India articles __________________ *MY INDIA, 2005-2008* "Once you have felt the Indian dust, you will never be free of it." (Rumer Godden, 1975)

Jan 8th, 2009, 12:17	#5
steven_ber Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: South of England. Posts: 11,562	The middle classes (and above) are too comfortable with child labour, it's not their children, so they don't give a shit, and as long as they continue to save money because of child labour, they'll never be interested in trying to put an end to it. Politicians will continue to make pre-election primises, but nothing will ever be done. What westerners need to realise is there's a group of people called Dalits, these people are considered to be 'sub-human' by higher castes, and it's the children of Dalits who make up the bulk of the child labour market. So we're not talking about 'human' children, only Dalit children. Try watching the way people speak to these children in restaurants, bars and tea stalls, it's sickening. If the way a country treats it's children is any indicater of advancement, India will be a 'third world' country for many more generations. __________________ . How to get helpful replies to your transport/Itinerary questions. Train information. RAC & Waitlists explained.

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Jan 5th, 2009, 15:16	#3
fsg Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: U.K Posts: 478	This is very complicated question, and deserves not to be answered by western values. Across the street where we spend some time in India is a 2 wheeler workshop. Dad who worked as a silk weaver in Kanchi was disabled in his legs and could no longer work the loom. No 1 son was taken out of school at 7 to be apprenticed to a 2 wheeler mechanic. He was treated unkindly, if he made a mistake he got a clout, but learnt well. No 3 son was likewise taken from school at the same age, and taught by his big brother, again getting more than a clip about his ears for mistakes. They run a very successful business, with clients turning up at 7.30 am. No 3 does all the jobs No 1 can do and even now Dad can turn his hand to simple jobs. They have knocked down their old house and a building anew, dust is everywhere. They are not at all dumb, stupid, but very shrewd, and know what their market is, and have profited by it well. No size fits all in the employment of child labour in India. I can only tell as I see it

Jan 8th, 2009, 16:28	#9
fsg Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: U.K Posts: 478	Quite right Nick re Bramin and cooking, if its a a Bramin function its BRAMIN cooks. To broaden this discussion further.......... how long is a piece of string?????????????? Abuse is just not relevant to children. I was in a S indian town famous for its hospital when I saw a'family' of albinos. Mum? Dad?and 2 babes. One babe was being bottle fed. Never in all my travelling in India have I seen a child on the street being bottle fed, its always a discreet breast. They had a begging bowl in front and people were throwing in 20/- notes. I have never seen such largesse before. I watched from some distance and discreetly in the background was their minder who would cream off the money and move them on to another town. If I am wrong please correct but a family of albilnos must be a chance in a billion, so they must have been gathered together, or bought from their families for the purpose of begging. In where I live some of the time there is a big festival, and twice I have seen a troup of blind beggars, young men, coming along the street, arms stretched holding on the the one in front, chanting songs. In front is again the minders collecting the money. Im afraid I was so angry I shouted at the minders and at least the had the grace to look sheepish, and quickly went on. Re Dalits there are more and more opportunities in jobs for BC OBC and other communities. If you read the jobs appointments in the , say Hindu, jobs are allocated to the various communities by number for each community, higher caste getting proportionallly less, lower more Whether of course this actually happens is another matter. The medical students, high caste, called the Creamy Layer, in Delhi are often up in arms because their status is being undermined by an influx of less high born. I doubt if Indian will ever get rid of the caste system, but hopefully it will change.

Jan 11th, 2009, 15:52	#10
steven_ber Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: South of England. Posts: 11,562	My earlier post was made only minutes after reading yet another disgusting newspaper article, so my words were not well thought out. I was refering to 'caste crimes', when a member of one caste commits a crime against a member of another cast (a lower caste normally), because they don't approve of what the lower caste person is doing. (there are many more reasons used as well) The story I'd just read was sadly typical. A woman was abused by a higher caste man, she then went to file a complaint with the police, so the higher caste man and his friends beat the woman, then took her 3 month old baby from her arms and beat the baby to death. Her 'crime'...... Lets play a guessing game, those who known the answer should wait to see what others guess. Did the woman.... 1, hand the man some money with her left hand. 2, refuse to give the man some bangles for free. 3, wore her slippers as she walk to the well to collect water. 4, refuse to step out of the way so the man could pass. One of the above was crime enough to cost the woman her childs life, can you guess?