Are Indians corrupt?

#1 Jan 6th, 2005, 14:42
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#1
Are Indian corrupt?
What are ur experiences indiamikers?

Following is a contemplative piece. Full text available on
http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/c...asp?cid=305914


Are Indians corrupt: by Sankrant Sanu

In his last Republic Day address, Indian president Abdul Kalam spoke about
what has become a hot topic in India today. He said: ??There are only three members of the society who can remove corruption? They are father, mother and elementary school teacher.?

The implication of his remarks is that widespread problem of corruption in India
is ultimately a problem of moral character. President Kalam is not alone in these views in India: in fact, it is a common assumption.

It cannot be denied that the average citizen encounters more petty corruption in India than in the United States. If this corruption is a factor of relative moral character, then this must imply that Americans possess a higher moral character than Indians, which results in the United States
having a lower degree of corruption than India. Examining data like the
Corruption Perception Index published by Transparency International[1], we find that a number of countries ravaged by European colonization show up as some of the most corrupt. It must then be concluded that the
people in all these countries are moral imbeciles, who can't distinguish right
from wrong and haven't been taught so by their parents and teachers.

While President Kalam is right that parents and teachers play a key role in
building the values of a child, we argue here that widespread corruption in society is not simply a function of morality. The phenomena of what is seen as widespread corruption is a failure of the system rather than simply of individuals, and it is in the transformation of the system that we must seek primary remedies.

Are Indians Immoral Or Is It The System?

Firstly, let us examine the question of morality. If it is indeed the case that
corruption is a result of character flaws of Indians rather than problems with the system, then this character flaw must be widely seen even when Indians are removed from the Indian system. However, we don't find that Indians in America, for instance, are perceived to be especially corrupt. They are
generally regarded as honest, hard-working entrepreneurs, employees and
citizens. How is it that the same mothers, fathers and teachers, who have presumably failed in India, appear to have not done a terribly bad job when their children land in the US? Are our friends and neighbors in India
really so much less moral than the people we meet in the US? Is high morality
the prerogative of a particular race or religion?

That is, if individuals with similar backgrounds appear to act differently
within two different systems, understanding the difference in the two systems is likely to provide clues to understanding the difference in perceived corruption in India and the United States.
#2 Jan 6th, 2005, 15:30
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i think you have hit the nail on the head whan you alluded to " different systems".

every soceity has a certain percentage of people, who are by their very nature, up to no good ...(born with a "law-breaking" "tax-evedng" kind of mentality). lets put this at 5 % and take it further.

5 % of indian population is a lot many more people than 5% of any other country (save china)
in developed countries, like those of north america, western europe and japan, the law and order system is sooooo good , the level of vigilence of the "anti-crime" branches, starting from an ordinaty police station to right up to premier institutes like F.B.I are so high that most of the law breakers are booked and nabbed in quick time. high level of forensics and modern detective methods also come in very handy (i watch that program in discovery channel, whatever its called, about the latest technologies that are used to prove cases against suspects - the space and nuclear research dept.s in most third world countries are at a lower rung on the technology ladder, let alone the criminal investigaton dept.s ).also a top celebrity like whako jacko or rich person like a martha stewart has no advantage over a common man - he he or she deserves to be indicted and nabbed, he/she will be no matter how powerful. plus in developed countries, even the govt run institutes like the crime branch are run with a level of efficiency and "performance driven approach", which isnt very far behnd ther private/ corporate sectors. not the case in india. often one crimes leads to a chian of crimes - eg: the suspect bribes the witness.... the witness thinks that he commited the "crime" of accepting a bribe, it wouldnt be very easy to catch him for the aforementones factors and accepts. the situation spirals out of hand... becomes self sustaining !!

so the results of these difference is bascally this. in (lets take usa as a "test" developed country) usa, criminals find themselves booked in no time. if caught, they are also sentenced in no time - in india cases stay pending for years and even decades, and even when they commence they go at a snails pace. so in usa a would be criminal thinks twice, even thrice before attemptng a crime. and those that do, are soon removed from free soceity and confined to the pleasures of preson cells. here the criminals hang around in society for a lot more time than they should ( and "would". had they commited a similar crime in usa). so another guy with evil intentions doesnt think much of the risks, maybe gets inspired by some of the "commited crime but never got caught" types in soceity, and well... the monetary and any other kind of milage that he could gain by commiting a certain crime just dont seem to match up wth the "risk" of commiting the crime. so he most likely takes the plunge....and sometmes one good turn (read crime), deserves another!!
criminals in usa would commit a lot more crimes if the police and judiciary there was as clumsy and inefficent. some not-yet-criminals would also feel that the risks are meager and take the plunge.....


indians arnt corrupt per se'. if we had a system half as good as that of usa, the number of criminals, tax evadors, scamsters lurking free would be a lot less. whoich would mean a lot less people would feel inspired to emulate them....the vicious cycle could be arrested and even broken.

so much for possible excuses!!!
i'd say that the level of social responsiblity of people in developed countries is indeed a lot more than those of india. perhaps thats why their countries are developed. a good "basic" and "accessible to all" educational system also goes a long way towards creating responsible citizens. a better economic situation leaves lesser disaffected and disoriented people.....if parents have to spend most of ther lives worring about the next meal, then not much time can they devote to "bringing up the child right" isnt it?if i know right, most criminals in the developed west are from the "ghettos" or "hoods" of the city...the harlems, the sohos, the hell's kitchens and places like london's west or east (i am not sure) end. (of course white collar corporate crime is a different story)

i'd like to believe, bad as the situation is india, things could look up if a good system is put in place , and if basic education (especially for the women folk) becomes more widespread, and if the economy as a whole gets better.
#3 Jan 6th, 2005, 15:37
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correction

....the witness thinks that if he commited the "crime" of accepting a bribe,....
#4 Jan 6th, 2005, 15:54
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#4

Thumbs up

corruption is an off shoot of civilisation - from time immemorial, we have had corrupt characters. unless you grease palms, you will not reach your goal. bribe opens up doors of opportunities.

the americans had their mafia dons who are the ancestors of our own dawood ibrahims. in order to enjoy power, all those in power need protection - hence, mafias are born.

india is no exception.
#5 Jan 6th, 2005, 17:54
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It is too dangerous and misguided to make gross generalisations about any race of people. We all know where that can lead.

And ami, come on ... in all the innocence of posting a quote you must realise that standing behind a quotation is the same as writing it yourself unless you categorically denounce what you are quoting about Indians being corrupt - or if I am reading it right are you throwing the argument back at the Americans?

Sorry to do this but I am going to have to quote you...

Quote:
The implication of his remarks is that

it is a common assumption.

the average citizen encounters

imply that Americans possess

ravaged by European colonization

It must then be concluded that the people in all these countries

character flaw must be widely seen

They are generally regarded as
Hmmmm ... one or two assumptions and generalisations in there methinks.
But anyway I will try to answer your original question...

Quote:
Are Indian corrupt?
What are ur experiences indiamikers?
My answer is 'no'. All my experiences in India are positive. Yes I have encountered individuals with an opportunistic nature in India but no-where have I come across corruption like your post / quote suggests.

Fellow travellers and prospective first-time India visitors please do not read too much into this thread.

Enjoy India. Enjoy meeting our Indian friends.

If India was so "corrupt" no-one would be donating money for aid where it is needed in the south-east of the country right about now.

rab
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#6 Jan 6th, 2005, 18:10
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#6

Are ********* Anything?

You can't ask if a race or nationality are anything as broad as corrupt. Infact you can't ask if they are nice, bad, evil, happy or sad. Because to do so is a generalisation, and that I am afraid is racist.

You can ask: " Is India hot? " for instance.
You could ask; " Are some Indians Corrupt? " But you could equally ask that about anyone. And the answer will always be " Yes! "

Are some English druggie wasters?
Are some Americans knowalls?
Are some Germans boring?
Are some Israelis racist?
Are some Indians corrupt?

Pretty pointless questions aren't they........
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#7 Jan 10th, 2005, 01:04
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[QUOTE=Matty Gee]You can't ask if a race or nationality are anything as broad as corrupt. Infact you can't ask if they are nice, bad, evil, happy or sad. Because to do so is a generalisation, and that I am afraid is racist.

You can ask: " Is India hot? " for instance.
You could ask; " Are some Indians Corrupt? " But you could equally ask that about anyone. And the answer will always be " Yes! "

Pretty pointless questions aren't they........
QUOTE]

Well said thanks Matty Gee...
#8 Jan 10th, 2005, 07:09
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Hi BT

I think you have a point there. Complicated systems encourage "diddling". I know I will not pay a cent more in taxes than I have to, mostly because I am cheap but also because it is a challenge to make the system work for you if you can. And also when people in positions of authority are not getting enough resources to support themselves, like underpaid police officers, stuff happens. No-one would consider trying to bribe a police officer much less a magistrate in my country unless they were seriously wealthy and it was a capital crime because it would just cost too much. On the other hand, I loaned small sums of cash to different individuals while I was in India and they always paid me back promptly. Other foreigner thought I was mad, but can you go through life suspecting everyone?

I think some foreigners who find out that merchants are charging them twice as much for goods as they do Indian customers get a little miffed, and call that corruption. Maybe they should work on their barganing skills or loosen up and accept that they should share a little of their good fortune with others.

It will be good for their karma in the long run.
#9 Jan 10th, 2005, 16:50
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#9
"Miffed........"


Todays tops word....

Nice one
#10 Jan 10th, 2005, 17:14
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#10

racist israelis.....

Matty Gee i've never heard of this one 'israelis are racist'.
Is that what people say? You have any encounters of a racist israeli?
Who are they racist to? WHite or indian?
#11 Jan 10th, 2005, 23:33
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#11
I read the post title, "Are Indians Corrupt?" and am still laughing. Indians? Try Chicagoans! I live in Chicago, where the mayor's lackeys are currently being tried for bid rigging and other offenses and where the former governor of Illinois is about to go on trial for a host of offenses, one of which is giving drivers' licenses to people who bribed officials. In one case that resulted in a car accident where 6 children of a minister were burned alive in their van. Indians corrupt? Hahahahahahaha.
The only thing we have going for us is the fact that prices are all posted and fixed (except for cars, and nobody in their right mind likes to shop for a car.) That's where the bulk of problems come in the third world countries--the necessity for bargaining and the feeling after every transaction that you have been taken. That ain't gonna change soon.
#12 Jan 11th, 2005, 00:24
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#12

To lob one softball Question back?

Are Americans torturers?

No, before you answer, just think about it. An AG *and* a president who believes in it thus making it *almost* law(I know, it can be challenged in the SCOTUS yada,yada). Hence representative of the *people*[1] of USA?

Please, think this through before you reply why you find it offensive and i'll tell you why I find *yours* offensive.

--
1. OK, 51-53% of the population but that's still a democratic majority as far as rule of law is concerned, isn't it?
#13 Jan 11th, 2005, 00:56
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#13
Adumim.....

Are you for real?
#14 Jan 11th, 2005, 01:08
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#14
mat did i sound like im joking?
#15 Jan 11th, 2005, 04:07
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Racism in India is a pretty complicated business, it's nowhere as simple as black and white. I was in a South Indian town where large numbers of Europeans and a few westerners and Asians like to spend the winter. There were also a large number of Kasmiri merchants who come down every season. I noticed that there were a few German ladies who enjoyed the company of these fellows, you could see them hanging out together in the restaurants.

I became friendly with a local guy, but we had to grab a rickshaw, he rode in the front with the driver till we got out of town, to enjoy a meal together. I asked him why we couldn't go somewhere in town. He explained that to the cops, the Kasmiris were "white" and how white people socialized was their own business, but he was Indian and there were laws about socialization between Foreign Lady and Indian Gent. They all just looked like different shades of brown to me. Actually had a local cop drop by to make sure I didn't have any male sandals hanging about my place.

So as to the issue are Israelies racist? Would we actually realize it even if they were? I'm sure the people who they treat as "inferior" probably do know it, but it might be too subtle for overseas visitors to see or understand. The distinction between Kasmiri and Indian had escaped me, I thought they were both part of the same country.

It seems that political, religious and cultural differences are more important than genetic differences, so can you still call that racist? or pertaining to race?

Still, nobody can miss how crappily they treat Pallistinians, but is that about race or just bloody guilt for their usurpation of another peoples homeland, no matter what their race?
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