The Courtesans of Bombay

MrsC_772

Just watched Merchant Ivory "The Courtesans of Bombay" (with a very young Saeed Jaffrey) which was on Film Four the other day.

My random musings below

- An Indian equivalent of Japanese geisha (not that I know much about the world of geisha)?

- A relatively modern equivalent of the nautch girls of the Mughal age?

- Does that world of dancing girls in Pavan Pool still exist, given how much Mumbai must have changed in the last 25 years?

- To look at, the singing and dancing didn't look particularly risque but the impression was given that visiting the dancers was very much an Indian equivalent of going to a dodgy lap dancing club or even brothel, or occupied a similar niche in terms of a blokes' night out that would be frowned upon by "respectable society". Why is it so frowned on? Is it that the dancers offer illicit "extras" (ie prostitution)? Is it that the style of dancing is seen as risque as compared with other forms of Indian dance?

- Parallels with the story which outraged IMers a few days ago about the selling of the virginity of a 14 year old Rajasthani girl, who was a member of a tribe where prostitution was virtually a hereditary career path, in the negotiations with the potential patron/sugar daddy of one of the young dancing girls.

Have any other IMers seen the film? Interested in people's views.

wonderwomanusa

Haven't seen it yet, but it's on my Netflix (a DVD-by-mail scheme) queue; I'll look for it and move it up the queue so that I'll see it sooner rather than later.

PeakXV

There was a thread on their (Nautch) Bombay banning a while back - here.

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Don't go to India ~ Pre-trip Warnings & Misconceptions?

Cardamom

Hi MrsC_772

Yes, I have seen this film twice. I was a little annoyed by the narrator at some moments. I have no idea what modern day Mumbai is like, but I have a feeling this film is a nice snapshot of that time. I also like Zohra Sehgal I am a little confused tho at how much was documentary and how much was scripted. Did you get to see the extras on the DVD - a mini documentary about musicians? I enjoyed that very much.

-C

Nick-H

I've only known India for eleven years. My guess is that it has utterly changed in 25 years --- apart for life for the rural poor, which probably hasn't changed much in 250.

Haven't seen the film

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Gametotravel

In the old zamindari(landlords, upper echeleons )style the art of the dance(Kathak) took centre stage and sex a little distant goal , but not always and not with all people appreciating her dance.

Mirza Ghalib the famous sufi poet did his wine drinking and inspiration taking in such places called Kothas.

This form of dance in a more secure India is taught to girls of good and respectable houses too.

wonderwomanusa

Next time you visit UK, try to watch a DVD of Louis Malle's PHANTOM INDIA, which is from the late 60s. It is a very different country from the one where you now live!

machadinha

I was reminded of the same; a bit of looking around for "nautch" (said to be erroneously related to it by some, while others do indeed seem to claim such a connection) brought me to the tradition of devadasis. Interesting article (including their varying reception over time), and if anything it goes to show that there may be more complex traditions underlying some practices that may seem hard to the outsider to comprehend at first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadasi . I'm not saying this is necessarily related to that tribals story, I simply wouldn't know; but there could well be parallels (and I had been reminded by that story of temple prostitution, which this [those devadasis] appears to be very much akin to, if not simply its Indian manifestation).

I suppose a more mundane explanation for those dancing girls being looked on somewhat uncomfortably may be that expressive or exuberant dance and music takes place in a somewhat murky interzone in many (traditional) cultures: half-revered and respected, half-suspect and lewd by nature. And as far as I know those Mumbai bars in question are considered somewhat seedy pick-up joints in any case yes.

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machadinha

... ps Only looking on for the movie now, I think I've seen it yes, but quite some time ago. If it's the same movie, it struck me as (what I imagine to be) a fairly authentic depiction of these people's lives yes (if hardly uplifting, but then you wouldn't expect it to, although it has its moments of humor if I recall); from all I've read and heard even prostitution in India takes place in a setting and with rituals and customs all of its own, hardly like (today) in the West.

This review claims parts of it were staged yes: http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s1586bomb.html

I don't know about today's Lonely Planet, but my old India copy quite eloquently and with a feeling for understatement describes one of those dancing bars as:

(It adds few non-Indians make it out there.) The movie though if I'm talking about the same one is more about the daily life and on-grounds entertainment offered in a residential block inhabited by those people, is that right? Or that's how that review reminded me.

Nick-H

The majority of prostitution in India probably takes place in lorry drivers' cabs and dark alley corners, and even at th higher end of the market I doubt that it differs much from the same transaction in a European city.

machadinha

I wasn't talking about the setting or "high" or "low" Nick (nor about the natural essence of the transaction), I just meant that the codes of conduct may differ somewhat. (Hm, in fact I did call it the setting. Well, what I meant again is it will follow its own patterns I guess. Attending one of those performances for instance and to my knowledge will be more casual and less binding than its equivalent in the west might be. That is to say it doesn't have to result in you-know-what, and it can be just a "blokes' night out" as MrsC. aptly put it. I may be wrong. Some dhaba action would undoubtedly be very different again yes.)

Meanwhile, on the ambiguous social status of music and the musician (as well as other arts, including dance by implication I guess), I was reminded of this piece. The author rambles on a little more than I care for, but there's some interesting thoughts: The Utopian Blues (by Hakim Bey). (Yes, I'll agree it's quite a sidestep. Hey, MrsC. offered her random musings -- I thought I'd offer mine )

brishti

continuing from where mindgames left off:

courtesans [ tawaiif's ] in india, in days gone by, were women who had exceptional gifts in singing and/or dancing.
they usually came to the kotha's [ houses of courtesans ] at a very young age - usually under dubious pretexts.
from then on till puberty - they were perfected in the arts of classical dance and/or music.
no - they were not physically abused.
no - they were not prostitutes.
kotha's were places the men came to relax... they drank and watched/heard the women sing and dance... and for this - they paid.
them 'kotha's' were frowned upon, as the tawaiif's were supposedly considered not to be 'good women'... for they sang and danced for their daily bread.

begum akhtar - one of the awesomest dadra/thumri/ghazal singers - was from one such kotha.
they were women of substance... each perfected the art they pursued.

have not watched the movie the OP is referring to.
but two other recommended movies are "umrao jaan" and "pakeezah"
them courtesans can be compared to the japanese geisha's... who too had to perfect the art of the tea ceremony, dancing and singing etc.
they too were 'companions' who created an ambiance where men relaxed, drank and had the pleasure of good company.
no - again - they were/are not prostitutes.

kathak - was usually the classical dance form performed in kothas.


back to the present:
the 'dance bar girls' are the other end of the spectrum.



:brishti

[ phew: lotsa googling - hope some misconceptions have been clarified ]
yup mach - you were on the same trail as i followed!

machadinha

Heheh. Carry on, Brishti That Begum Akhtar sounds like another one to check out!

brishti

if you havent already - you must hear her songs mach...
i dont understand urdu/dadra/thumri - BUT her voice will blow you away.
thats a guarantee

i have had the privilege of hearing her live - its a once-in-a-lifetime-experience.


:brishti

machadinha

Heheh. After Lata Mangeshkar (I have a tape of her singing Ghalib) -- sure, I'll look for her. (Now for me to learn some Urdu, indeed Or Persian, for that matter.)